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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by wooper4000
    It was mentioned earlier of a soft cap for haste. I recently joined a raiding guild and I believe I know my priest fairly well but was told I needed more haste. I never stacked it and was running with 430 haste from gear. I am now at 604 with gems and enchants. Its nice to cast a FH in 1.28 but is it necessary? Feed back welcome please.
    I personally don't think it's necessary to cast a Flash Heal that fast, but that's just me. I use Renew a lot more than I use Flash Heal, so it could just be me. My advise would to gear for what suits your playstyle better.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  2. #22

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    You should think about exactly how the stats you stack effect your playstyle and what your character is "lacking" currently... ill quote a post I read a long time ago from the priest theorycrafting thread @ EJ to try and help

    You need to think about three different concepts as a healer. They are:


    Throughput: Amount of healing you can put out per second
    Mana Longevity: How much total mana you have access to over the fight
    Mana Efficiency: How much healing one point of mana buys you

    Stacking haste is the fastest way to increase your throughput, but it doesn't boost your mana efficiency or longevity at all. The amount of healing you can do in a fight is the same with 0 haste or 1000 haste. Having 1000 haste just lets you do that healing faster. If you are running out of mana in fights already, there is no reason to stack haste.

    If you stack int, you are increasing your longevity. You have more mana over the fight, so the total healing you can do increases. Ignoring the minuscule amount of spell crit that int provides, it won't increase how much healing each spell does though. So there's no change in throughput or mana efficiency. If you aren't running out of mana, there is no reason to stack intellect.

    When you stack spell power and crit, you're increasing the effect of your heals. In other words, each point of mana buys you more healing than it did before. This is an increase to mana efficiency. (In the case of crit, extra crits improve your holy concentration uptime, which also gives longevity, but I will ignore that for now in the interest of simplicity.) Spell power and crit are the only way to actually gain mana efficiency. It helps both when you are running out of mana (though not as much as int) and when you need more throughput (though not as much as haste).

    If you want to increase both the total healing you can do in a fight and your throughput, you can either stack just spell power, or you can stack a mixture of haste and intellect. It turns out that because of the coefficient returns on spell power, you get better overall returns from spell power than you do from the mix of haste and int. You should never have both haste and intellect gems in your gear-- that's suboptimal. You either want haste and spell power (at high gear levels) or spell power and int (at low gear levels).

    Additionally, spell power gives better efficiency returns than crit. So the possible ranking of stats from a gemming perspective has these constraints:

    spell power > crit
    spell power > haste or spell power > int (or both)

    Some common stat rankings:

    haste > spell power > crit > int (max throughput)
    int > spell power > crit > haste (max mana longevity)
    spell power > crit > int > haste (max mana efficiency)

  3. #23

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by wooper4000
    It was mentioned earlier of a soft cap for haste. I recently joined a raiding guild and I believe I know my priest fairly well but was told I needed more haste. I never stacked it and was running with 430 haste from gear. I am now at 604 with gems and enchants. Its nice to cast a FH in 1.28 but is it necessary? Feed back welcome please.
    Like what ynna said do you think its neccessary? Another thing to note is that the haste soft cap that has often been mentioned on EJ of 12%, or 500+ actually takes into account bloodlust (12% + 8 % +30% = 50%)* . Whether you wish to consider that the "soft cap" is up to you.

    Personally I would consider 604 abit low for current raid content but like Ynna said again its personal playstyle and what beliefs you subscribe to

  4. #24

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was pretty certain haste also affected the duration of your global cooldown. Obviously haste isn't a stat that needs to be ridiculously stacked, but having an abundance of it is not a bad thing. I have 762 haste. In my opinion it's a little too high, but that's the gear I've had available to me. I DO NOT gem haste or anything of the like, not even haste on my cloak. I will tell you tho, a 1 sec FH or 2 sec GH is VERY nice in a crunch, and my gcd blows by so fast I am open to cast anything I want anytime I want. Adding to this, Serendipity+my haste+POH+30% crit = 5 members of a raid group completely topped off from 50% hp. The cast took what, 1 second if that? Very valuable in healing intensive fights like Algalon or ICC 25 where you need to heal several people big, but also be on the move. Something a holy priest isn't the best at where COH and POM just aren't cutting it. Summary, haste isn't a bad thing, 20% is a nice round number I shoot for, but it is not the most valuable of priest stats. Here's my armory, pick me apart if you wish.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Pallyincloth

    Btw, my crit just recently went down about 3% unbuffed, but this is quickly increasing with an new upgrade and I geared planning in that. Also I'm well aware Binding Stone absolutely blows, but I have yet to find a replacement.

    *edit* For background. Even in 25 man I'm usually top total heals, top hps and lowest overhealing %. So I feel pretty confident I know what I'm doing. A recent fix to my mana issues(resolved from the advice of the fine people on this forum) I have become an absolute machine.

  5. #25
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    It's not just haste, it's Spellpower primary, Haste as a secondary.

    Crit doesn't increase your thoroughput. It's a burst stat that can't be counted on, unless you require regen. RNG is Random, afterall. The thing is, as a raid healer, your "go to" spell is often Prayer of Healing. Having this spell hit harder does very little, having it hit faster so you can already move onto another target is better.

    Haste on instant is meh (it helps, but nowhere near SP on those). But for Prayer, you really really don't need crit/sp to make it hit harder. >.>
    According that you don't raid with 6 resto druids+an holy priest, you'll hardly find people during AoE bosses not below 4-5-6k wich is the normal hit of PoH, CoH and FH, that won't allow you to benefit from critical strike, even if it's "random increase of healing" that everyone seems to dislike.

    Haste is only needed by your PoH, and FH for those who uses this as filler.

    Critical is good for everything.

  6. #26

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    needs to be some sorta requirement to post on these boards
    get the retards outa here
    If youre going to be so crude about others views, at least substantiate why you think they are wrong and you're right.

  7. #27

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by {_Izenhart_}
    According that you don't raid with 6 resto druids+an holy priest, you'll hardly find people during AoE bosses not below 4-5-6k wich is the normal hit of PoH, CoH and FH, that won't allow you to benefit from critical strike, even if it's "random increase of healing" that everyone seems to dislike.

    Haste is only needed by your PoH, and FH for those who uses this as filler.

    Critical is good for everything.
    You wind up a Prayer of Healing. It crits twice out of the five times. Now, do those crits happen on the people that need them the most? What about the other three? They still need healing. Crit rating is random, and unreliable as thoroughput, in comparison to the solid gains of Haste (which also affects Global Cooldown, but it's HUGE on Prayer), or Spellpower which amps up everything.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
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  8. #28

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    hmmm crit
    inspiration on MT: check
    holy conc nonstop: check
    43% crit x6 coh targets =258% to crit / by 50% = 129% to get a SOL every coh: check
    more free SOL's as you scratch your balls doing nothing while pom GGS the healing meters for you: check
    BIGGER heals: check

    hmmm haste
    inspiration on MT: wait let me cast 2 more flash heals to get inspiration up... damn that took a while, oh raid member died. o well il smite WITH MAH HASTE
    holy conc nonstop: only took 2 more FH's to proc
    SOL: i spec haste cause i cant manage procs and cooldowns properly... whats SOL do?
    FASTEER heals, they heal for a ton less, wth i thought paladins never oom...
    oh fk im not a paladin



    just sayin
    I have one question, where the hell do you get 43% crit? and if you could attain that crit % how lousy are the rest of your stats to get there?

  9. #29

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    43% crit x6 coh targets =258% to crit / by 50% = 129% to get a SOL every coh: check
    Your maths is wrong. Each COH target has a 0.215 chance to proc SOL. Thats a 0.785% chance a target wont proc SOL. There is still a (0.785)^6 =0.23chance all of them dont crit.

    And also try to write more objectiively and rationally. So you like crit and thats fine, but your post was too blatantly far-fetched, biased, and just asking to get shot down. I have very low crit and I get more than enough SOLs as it is. There is a very big difference between what happens when you crit, andwhat adding crit rating does for you. The value of adding crit severely drops alot the more you have, and im not talking about crit rating -> crit chance conversion

  10. #30

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    hmmm crit
    inspiration on MT: check
    If you crit the tank, which often you don't. Also, if you have a Resto Shaman or Disc Priest, this will have 100% uptime. If not, even with 43% crit you don't always. Last I checked, Empowered Renew also doesn't apply it.
    holy conc nonstop: check
    Sure. If you spam single target heals, the weakness of the spec. Circle, Mending, and Prayer (your strong spells) have nothing to do with Holy Concentration.
    43% crit x6 coh targets =258% to crit / by 50% = 129% to get a SOL every coh: check
    Well, actually, it's 43% chance on each target, which means 57% chance to not crit for each target.
    2.2% chance to not crit once, and a 0.6% chance to crit 6 times. Even if you do crit 6 times, Surge of Light is not and will never be guaranteed. If you crit 6 times (which is already super rare) still has a 1.5% chance of not giving it, let alone 5 crits (3.125%), or 4 (6.25%), 3 (12.5%), 2 (25%) and 1 (50%).

    more free SOL's as you scratch your balls doing nothing while pom GGS the healing meters for you: check
    BIGGER heals: check
    More unreliable bigger heals that are either a) Not enough across teh entire raid (thus requiring more prayers) or b) laughable overheal ont he ones that didn't need it? I understand now.

    hmmm haste
    inspiration on MT: wait let me cast 2 more flash heals to get inspiration up... damn that took a while, oh raid member died. o well il smite WITH MAH HASTE
    Are you still bad?
    holy conc nonstop: only took 2 more FH's to proc
    If you're spending mana to maintain a mana conservation tool, you're probably doing something wrong. Not casting > Flash Heal if that's what you're trying.
    SOL: i spec haste cause i cant manage procs and cooldowns properly... whats SOL do?
    And yet, I still get SoL quite frequently, more often with Prayer of Mending than anything else.
    FASTEER heals, they heal for a ton less, wth i thought paladins never oom...
    oh fk im not a paladin
    What happens when your heals don't crit? Which happens 57% of the time by the way. It's smaller, and slower to get replaced.

    just sayin
    You're bad. just sayin
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
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    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  11. #31

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    You're bad. just sayin
    I normally wouldn't bother with going through the trouble of debunking every logic hole here, but good job

  12. #32

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by rubberbands
    I normally wouldn't bother with going through the trouble of debunking every logic hole here, but good job
    I generally get a little antsy when bads quote me and try to make me out to be one of them. I just had some time on my hands tonight.
    And someone needs to bring down the hammer, and dispense some indiscriminate justice.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    It's amazing how many people in this topic clearly don't realise that haste affects your GCDs as well.

    "ye but i dont need haste coz all i cast is instant lol"

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Tihr
    It's amazing how many people in this topic clearly don't realize that haste affects your GCD's as well.

    "ye but i don't need haste because all i cast is instant lol"
    I think most people on this forum know this. But if you use Flash Heal as your 'filler' heal you would be more biased towards haste as opposed to those who prefer Empowered Renew., I don't think anyone here would disagree with this. But everyone has their own healing style and should gear accordingly.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  15. #35

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    holy jesus you are very stupid sir, please continue to post for the sake of the troll
    I'm sorry, but you clearly have no idea of the mechanics behind the game.

    Crit is a non-linear stat, meaning the more you have, the less useful it gets.
    Once you reach a certain % of crit, being able to pump out more heals proves to be more useful.

    If you can't see that, then please, leave these forums because you do not deserve to be a healer.

  16. #36

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    the rival speaks
    who taught u how to spec, your pve spec has half the pvp talents and ur pvp spec has half the pve goodies, do you play with a monitor?
    my eyes, they burn

    need more downs patients posting, 2 more hours at work to kill
    Troll, go away.

    It is quite obvious when you comment on my spec when I have never posted any armory link or even said my toon's name.

    The nurse needs to get this patient back into the room before he embarrasses himself further.


  17. #37

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    Crit is a non-linear stat, meaning the more you have, the less useful it gets.
    Once you reach a certain % of crit, being able to pump out more heals proves to be more useful.
    That depends on what you mean. As a regen stat Crit is indeed non-linear, the MP5 gain of going from 0->1% crit will be far greater than that going from 99-100%. However as a throughput stat Crit is completely linear, ceteri paribus going from 0%->1% will give the same absolute increase in raw HPS as going from 99%->100%.

    Haste is a better throughput stat, but only because the slope is steeper, in terms of throughput haste and crit are equally linear up to their respective caps.

    I must agree with you though that Areohvee appears to know absolutely nothing about priests.

  18. #38
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    That depends on what you mean. As a regen stat Crit is indeed non-linear, the MP5 gain of going from 0->1% crit will be far greater than that going from 99-100%. However as a throughput stat Crit is completely linear, ceteri paribus going from 0%->1% will give the same absolute increase in raw HPS as going from 99%->100%.

    Haste is a better throughput stat, but only because the slope is steeper, in terms of throughput haste and crit are equally linear up to their respective caps.
    Everything you say is true, however, you neglect the real important difference in throughput for Healing, which is that Haste is dependable and Crit is not. If I'm going to cast a Flash Heal, I usually cannot afford to wait for someone's health to drop more in the event that it crits. If someone really needs that big heal and Flash Heal crits, that's great, but it's not something I can plan my healing around. So, sure, Crit does have pure HPS throughput increase, but a much larger amount of Crits go to overhealing that non-Crits, so even though it scales at the same rate as Haste percentage-wise, it's not really a fair comparison. Yes, every once in a while a big Crit on the tank will save a raid wipe, but if you're getting to the point where you need that crit to prevent a wipe, there's probably more serious problems out there. Besides, if someone really needs that big heal, that's where Test of Faith comes in.

    Haste, on the other hand, affects every single cast and I always know exactly how it will impact my healing. Some will say that Haste is just a way of sniping heals from other healers, but that's on the assumption that one person is stacking Haste with that goal in mind and the other healers are ignoring it. Yes, there are situations where a bigger heal is more useful than a faster one, but that's where Spell Power shines because, again, it's dependable in it's throughput.

    So, not only does Haste scale better from rating than Crit, but it's dependability versus Crit's RNG is also important when evaluating their values as throughput stats.

  19. #39

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    Everything you say is true, however, you neglect the real important difference in throughput for Healing, which is that Haste is dependable and Crit is not.
    I was sticking to purely quantitative considerations, if I included the undependability I'd have to claim that crit had super-linear scaling as it becomes more dependable the more you have. I didn't want to jump into those muddy waters because qualitatively the two stats are much harder to compare, and while I agree with what you say you only really scratch the surface.

    CoH for example is often the top heal for a holy priest, yet it has essentially no haste scaling, and the same applies to ProM. Is that enough to outweigh the lack of dependable healing from crit? How will use of renew versus FH change it? Speccing for SoL versus not? What about longevity considerations? There are just too many imponderables, and as a result it's really a judgement call that the individual has to make, the best we can hope for is to help them to make it based on the facts and not out of ignorance.

    All I'm trying to do is kill off the bogus idea that gets splashed around that crit has diminishing returns, or is non-linear, etc. I owe it to all the maths teachers I have known. It starts off with people who appreciate that they don't really mean 'non-linear' or diminishing returns, but then it gets mutated by people who think it's literally true - and before you know it you end up with threads like this

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-warrior/agil-gt-crit

    Where two different people posted flat out that there were diminishing returns on crit rating

  20. #40

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    Some will say that Haste is just a way of sniping heals from other healers, but that's on the assumption that one person is stacking Haste with that goal in mind
    This so much. The "heal sniper" argument is really just a fallacy that assumes

    1. It doesnt matter how long the heal takes to arrive, just as long as it eventually comes
    2. People dont die between GCDs
    3. There is so little damage going around that there is too little for healers to heal, giving the illusion that healers are starting to "compete" with each other
    4. People are not quick/unable to cancel unrequired heals (lack of addons, coordination)

    And these situations are pretty much on easy content, not progression where however you gear wont matter much anyway.

    However as a throughput stat Crit is completely linear
    Mathematically maybe, but in actual practice not much so.

    CoH for example is often the top heal for a holy priest, yet it has essentially no haste scaling
    Again mathematically true, but it does not really work this way. We are not a dps. Expanding our biggest pie chart sector might not be what is most crucial.

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