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  1. #41

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Actually, mathematically speaking, my Mending outdoes my Circle, pretty much every fight. And I'm sure it will until I can drop 2pc9-245.
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  2. #42

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by rubberbands
    Again mathematically true, but it does not really work this way. We are not a dps. Expanding our biggest pie chart sector might not be what is most crucial.
    Even if we're not DPS, scaling issues still apply. If 90% of your throughput didn't scale with haste, haste would be a bad stat, the way that crit is a horrifically bad stat for a rejuv spamming resto druid raid healer, but haste is a horrifically bad stat after soft-cap for a nourish spamming resto druid tank healer.

    In this instance for holy priests a big chunk of throughput doesn't scale well with haste, ignoring that because 'we're not dps' isn't big or clever. Moreover that throughput comes in small pieces, so crit isn't going to inevitably massively overheal the way it does for a pally with HL. Even a crit of CoH is only about 6k, which is smaller than a non-crit from anything else. A ProM crit is larger, but ProM has extremely low OH for most people - so again, more crit is still very likely to increase the effective healing to a useful degree.

    However as a throughput stat Crit is completely linear
    Mathematically maybe, but in actual practice not much so.
    In practice you're wrong.

    c wut I did there?

    If you want to try to explain how the throughput gain of crit deviates from linearity in practical terms I'd love to see you do so. You won't however because it doesn't. What I suspect you mean is 'in practice it's a bad stat'. That may even be true, but no matter how bad it is, it's still linear, it's badness doesn't get worse the more you add.





  3. #43

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    so many bad players here

    LOVEEEEEEEE IT
    ohhhhhhhhhh
    How's full crit gemming treating you? pretty sweet. maybe now that you've gotten some ICC gear off joke bosses you'll finally be able to down the keepers in ulduar?
    now that you've had togc10 on farm for a week im sure that you'll be flying thru

    ps 21 crit 2% mana meta is sopro amirite?

  4. #44

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    if you want a thoroughput meta gem you should look into ember/revitalizing rather than a 2% mana/crit meta gem which would also be considered a lesser regen meta

    I stack spellpower; you gain more from 23 sp than 12sp+5bonus+3 from the spirit on a purified in a blue socket.

    Somehow I find that a chance at not losing casting time due to pushback is better than lolhealingfocus? There isnt much in the first 4 tiers of holy that would benefit you more.

    You complain about using a regen meta; then say that poh glyph is worthless when you use a regen glyph for flash heal isntead of it? nt

    maybe if you want to complain about people having regen on their gear or gemming you should spec out of mental agility

    ~450 SP/200 haste/50mp5 > 8.5% crit

  5. #45
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    I was sticking to purely quantitative considerations, if I included the undependability I'd have to claim that crit had super-linear scaling as it becomes more dependable the more you have. I didn't want to jump into those muddy waters because qualitatively the two stats are much harder to compare, and while I agree with what you say you only really scratch the surface.
    I have to disagree with your assertion that Crit would have super-linear scaling because of supposed dependability; in fact, I would argue that it would be undependable in a very bad ways at high enough levels. Consider the situation now, with 30% Crit, I generally cast spells on the assumption that it won't Crit, and if it does, that's great; it may result in pure overhealing or it may be some useful healing. Now consider an alternative situation where one has 70% Crit, a spell is now going to Crit more often than not. If I cast spells with the expectation that it will Crit, well, 30% of the time it won't and that may mean people will die when it doesn't. If I cast spells with the expectation that it won't Crit, well, now I'm going to have a lot of wasted Crits which effectively wastes most of that added Crit. There qualitatively isn't any alternative between either expecting a Crit or not expecting a Crit because there generally isn't enough time to evaluate whether a Crit happened or not because I generally don't have the time to adjust my next spell based on that result because once I begin a cast I'm already making decisions on what my next cast should be before it lands.

    CoH for example is often the top heal for a holy priest, yet it has essentially no haste scaling, and the same applies to ProM. Is that enough to outweigh the lack of dependable healing from crit? How will use of renew versus FH change it? Speccing for SoL versus not? What about longevity considerations? There are just too many imponderables, and as a result it's really a judgement call that the individual has to make, the best we can hope for is to help them to make it based on the facts and not out of ignorance.
    This is a fair point and one I hadn't really considered, that CoH and PoM actually scale fairly well with Crit and they are generally among the top 3-4 heals in a given encounter, often the top two. I'm not sure if that's enough to counteract the poor scaling due to much larger amounts of overheal there. The thing is, in those cases, it will be an almost pure throughput increase, but I'm not sure how often a random CoH or PoM crit will actually result in saving a life. It will work out well in a situation like Twins where raw throughput directly equates to saving lives, but I'm not sure about most other situations where planning and timing/reaction carries more weight. Meanwhile, a faster Flash Heal, Prayer of Healing, or a few more GCDs often can mean the difference between saving lives and not, and while it may not do as well in a situation where Crit heavily benefits spells like CoH and PoM, it still means rolling a few more FHs or Renews.

    All I'm trying to do is kill off the bogus idea that gets splashed around that crit has diminishing returns, or is non-linear, etc. I owe it to all the maths teachers I have known. It starts off with people who appreciate that they don't really mean 'non-linear' or diminishing returns, but then it gets mutated by people who think it's literally true - and before you know it you end up with threads like this...
    You're correct, that 1% Crit scales at exactly the same rate as 1% Haste in terms of raw throughput from a purely theoretical standpoint. But it's more complicated than that because, what's more important that absolute increase is relative increase, where if you have, say, 50% Crit and 0% Haste, 1% Haste will obviously be worth more relative HPS, and vice versa. This is further complicated by inherent Crit and Haste from talents like, Holy Specialization and Serendipity, and the inherent Crit from Intellect as well. Worse, is the fact that it takes more Crit Rating than Haste Rating to gain the same absolute increase, but each rating has the same itemization value point for point, so this skews the values as well.

    That said, Crit does have diminishing returns with respect to procs SoL and HC procs, and since the throughput component is linear, that means that Crit has a lower absolute worth at lower values than at higher values; meanwhile, Haste has so secondary effects. Like all stats for healers, I think that questions of Haste vs. Crit or Spirit vs. Int or Throughput vs. Regen are not, and should not, be treated as absolutes because they all depend upon what your current stats are, what the encounter is, and who your fellow healers are. In a situationation where raw throughput is seldom wasted and CoH and PoM are awesome, like Twins, Crit beats Haste as a throughput stat. In a situation like Deathwhisper where fast reactions mean a lot more, Haste trumps Crit. Thus, really, I think the appropriate question to ask, is what is the right balance? I think it's clear that 40% Crit and 10% Haste will do well in the former situation and poorly in the latter, while 10% Crit and 40% Haste will have the opposite effect.


    In pursuit of that balance, I would say that Crit wins out in steady constant raid damage because it will maximize the value of the tools that work best in that situation (PoM and CoH) where Haste just means a few more Renews. Similarly, I would say Haste wins out in raid-wide burst damage where maximizing the number of casts to get people above a minimum health threshold means more than a few random spikes. Meanwhile, random single target healing probably benefits somewhat from both, where Crit might mean someone who is low is topped off in one heal but Haste means I can potentially save two people in the amount of time I otherwise would only be able to save one. Would you say that's a fair assessment?




    @ Doctavice.... don't bother.

  6. #46

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    I have to disagree with your assertion that Crit would have super-linear scaling because of supposed dependability
    at 99% crit I would have some uncertainty, whereas at 100% crit there would be none. Thus there is a non-linearity somewhere if we try to introduce the dependibilty as a consideration. Exactly where you make it cross over from sub-linear to super-linear scaling is of course down to yet more imponderables. Lets not get side-tracked on this though, I was simply using it as an example of why I didn't want to bring this kind of fuzzier point in.

    The thing is, in those cases, it will be an almost pure throughput increase, but I'm not sure how often a random CoH or PoM crit will actually result in saving a life.
    The 'save a life' argument is problematic for raid healing in general. How often does CoH end up saving a life anyway or ProM? Yet good priests will generally use a high proportion of possible casts. As Harky pointed out in his meters matter thread, holy pallies save the tanks life every few seconds, so really 'save a life' considerations are iffy at best.

    You're correct, that 1% Crit scales at exactly the same rate as 1% Haste in terms of raw throughput from a purely theoretical standpoint.
    No I'm not because I didn't say that, and I didn't say it because it wouldn't be true! 1% crit only gives a .5% increase on your base HPS, since healing crits are only 150% not 200%. I've never claimed that crit is as good as haste for throughput. That both crit & haste are linear doesn't imply that they scale equally. Spirit is a linear throughput stat too, in fact all priest throughput stats are linear.

    What I think is interesting though is to switch to considering haste in a 'longevity neutral' way. What I mean by that is the following, if I take a toon from 0->1 % spell haste, then I decrease the longevity by about 1%. In order to fully cost the throughput gain from haste I need to restore the longevity back to the old value, by the addition of either Int/spirit/mp5 etc. For example if a character had 1000 Int and 1000 Spirit, I'd need to add approximately 10 Int and 10 Spirit along with the 33 points of haste.

    So we'd have 1% crit costing 45 points and 1% haste costing around 49 points to stay longevity-neutral. Considering the Int and spirit would give some slight throughput increase we can reduce that haste cost a little, but the result is that the two are much closer than we might otherwise conclude.

    Haste versus Crit is much more complicated than people tend to think. Overall I think holy priests tend to undervalue crit a little and disc priests tend to undervalue haste

  7. #47

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    Haste versus Crit is much more complicated than people tend to think. Overall I think holy priests tend to undervalue crit a little and disc priests tend to undervalue haste
    Shortened for emphasis, but that was one of the best retorts I've read in awhile. Thanks for that, Azyou.
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  8. #48

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Shortened for emphasis, but that was one of the best retorts I've read in awhile. Thanks for that, Azyou.
    Aw shucks It's not really a retort though, I don't exactly disagree with Zeuq. Priest theorycrafting is probably the least developed of any of the healers, because we're the least spammy healer. Our simcrafting sucks too, or at least Rawr did for disc priests last time I checked.

    In principle what healers really need is some kind of combat log parser which will approximate stat values from the players own style on a given encounter. That should give at least a semi-empirical way of choosing gear, while at the moment we're all stuck in these debates which at best are somewhat inconclusive, and at worst degenerate into troll-fests.

    Oh and feel free to call me Az

  9. #49
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    at 99% crit I would have some uncertainty, whereas at 100% crit there would be none. Thus there is a non-linearity somewhere if we try to introduce the dependibilty as a consideration. Exactly where you make it cross over from sub-linear to super-linear scaling is of course down to yet more imponderables. Lets not get side-tracked on this though, I was simply using it as an example of why I didn't want to bring this kind of fuzzier point in.
    While this is true, and I considered it as I was thinking about my points, it is sort of a side-track argument because, well, it's impossible to achieve anything remotely close to 100% Crit, so then we're just wanking in pure theory at that point.

    The 'save a life' argument is problematic for raid healing in general. How often does CoH end up saving a life anyway or ProM? Yet good priests will generally use a high proportion of possible casts. As Harky pointed out in his meters matter thread, holy pallies save the tanks life every few seconds, so really 'save a life' considerations are iffy at best.
    It is problematic, and I think a lot of healers over use the point in much the same way that I think many healers over use the heal sniping argument. My argument is not that CoH and PoM are bad spells, because they're not but in some situations there is a meaningful distinction between saving lives and having high throughput and it's a situation that is at least worth consideration. Let's take a fight like Deathwhisper as an example. It's a fight where I can quite possibly get lots of CoH Crits and rolling renews on anyone missing any health, but still do a poor job of keeping people alive because it's more a fight where getting people out of a position with low health is more likely to keep people alive than topping off a few people only missing 2-3k. A Holy Priest in that fight Flash Healing low health targets is doing a better job of keeping people alive than one rolling CoH and Renews (perhaps, unless your raid is lacking a Druid to keep people topped). OTOH, CoH does an awesome job of saving lives in a fight like Twins because everyone is taking damage and it serves to help even out the lowest people.

    Evaluating a Holy Priest who is raid healing in that situation from a pure throughput perspective is missing part of the picture. OTOH, evaluating a Druid raid healing in that encounter from a "saving lives" perspective makes little sense because a Druid won't often be able to bring several people above a minimum health threshold quickly, but instead keep them topped off to hopefully minimize the number of people falling below that threshold. Thus, in that situation, I would much rather see a Holy Priest with more Haste getting out a few more Flash Heals on low-health targets than having a fewer larger Flash Heals minimizing the need for the Druids to back-fill and top off with HoTs; the former combination will generally do a better job on average of keeping the raid alive in that encounter.

    Yes, it's a bit of an extreme example, and it's a fight where Holy Priests don't do well, but I hope it illustrates my point.

    No I'm not because I didn't say that, and I didn't say it because it wouldn't be true! 1% crit only gives a .5% increase on your base HPS, since healing crits are only 150% not 200%. I've never claimed that crit is as good as haste for throughput. That both crit & haste are linear doesn't imply that they scale equally. Spirit is a linear throughput stat too, in fact all priest throughput stats are linear.
    You're absolutely right. Reading it back, I didn't say what I thought I was saying. It would probably help if I didn't start posts, get distracted by work, and come back to finish my points later. So, forget I said that.

    What I think is interesting though is to switch to considering haste in a 'longevity neutral' way. What I mean by that is the following, if I take a toon from 0->1 % spell haste, then I decrease the longevity by about 1%. In order to fully cost the throughput gain from haste I need to restore the longevity back to the old value, by the addition of either Int/spirit/mp5 etc. For example if a character had 1000 Int and 1000 Spirit, I'd need to add approximately 10 Int and 10 Spirit along with the 33 points of haste.

    So we'd have 1% crit costing 45 points and 1% haste costing around 49 points to stay longevity-neutral. Considering the Int and spirit would give some slight throughput increase we can reduce that haste cost a little, but the result is that the two are much closer than we might otherwise conclude.
    This is an interesting perspective; however, I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. For instance, Crit does increase your throughput, but it also increases your longevity by increasing SoL and HC procs; thus, a little bit of Crit also offsets the need for some about of Int/Spirit. By the same token, a little bit of Haste also increases HC uptime (though by much smaller amount than Crit). I'm not sure how much that affects that line of thought, but I think you make a compelling point.

    Haste versus Crit is much more complicated than people tend to think. Overall I think holy priests tend to undervalue crit a little and disc priests tend to undervalue haste
    Absolutely agree here. I think a lot of this is people pushing concepts of Crit caps for Holy and Haste caps for Disc (and I'm at least partially guilty of that as well). Healing isn't like DPS where, aftering getting Hit capped, we can just stack whatever stat is the best pure throughput. All of these sorts of values are based on certain assumptions that just are a lot more difficult to see in real-world situations than they are for DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    Aw shucks It's not really a retort though, I don't exactly disagree with Zeuq. Priest theorycrafting is probably the least developed of any of the healers, because we're the least spammy healer. Our simcrafting sucks too, or at least Rawr did for disc priests last time I checked.
    I agree that our theorycrafting is crappy for the reasons I touched on above. It's relatively easy to theorycraft a Holy Paladin, for instance, because they usually serve a similar roll in a similar fashion from encounter to encounter. Rawr does a decent job of stat evaluation where our casting rotations are relatively consistent throughout the fight, like Twins. It fails miserably in fights where we aren't spamming and especially where our casting patterns don't follow consistent rotations like burst damage situations (Ignis, Hodir, etc.), significantly different phases (Mimi, Beasts), or other unusual gimmicks (Jaraxxus).


    In principle what healers really need is some kind of combat log parser which will approximate stat values from the players own style on a given encounter. That should give at least a semi-empirical way of choosing gear, while at the moment we're all stuck in these debates which at best are somewhat inconclusive, and at worst degenerate into troll-fests.
    I'd actually done something like that back in BC, but the math behind Priest theorycrafting was also a lot simpler back then.

  10. #50

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    Yes, it's a bit of an extreme example, and it's a fight where Holy Priests don't do well, but I hope it illustrates my point.
    It does but it also illustrates mine a bit too, which is that in order to find fights that emphasize the 'save a life' aspect you also inevitably find the ones where holy priests are weakest. These days with the new Beacon of Lol paladins are able to do the 'save a life' stuff better than us, even on the raid. They're smacking down HLs in the time it takes us to spit out a FH, and they can sustain it at least as well. Shaman can do it better too, with LHW spam. Arguably even a disc priest is better than holy for that kind of 'save a life' raid-healing.

    Again, I don't disagree with your point here - I just think that it's such an imponderable that I can't really gear around the idea.

  11. #51
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    It does but it also illustrates mine a bit too, which is that in order to find fights that emphasize the 'save a life' aspect you also inevitably find the ones where holy priests are weakest. These days with the new Beacon of Lol paladins are able to do the 'save a life' stuff better than us, even on the raid. They're smacking down HLs in the time it takes us to spit out a FH, and they can sustain it at least as well. Shaman can do it better too, with LHW spam. Arguably even a disc priest is better than holy for that kind of 'save a life' raid-healing.

    Again, I don't disagree with your point here - I just think that it's such an imponderable that I can't really gear around the idea.
    I agree that it's not a great example and Holy is particularly weak for that encounter; I was aiming more for an extreme situation where I think CoH is a poor heal and where doing your. I also certainly wouldn't begin to suggest we should gear around such an encounter. I think it's important that, unlike most other classes, even if a particular stat gives may scale better due to how a certain spell composes our spell distribution over an average encounter, because the Holy Priest's strength is the variety of it's toolbox, I think it's just as important to make sure all of our tools remain potent so we maintain our flexibility. IOW, I'm generally a strong proponent for maintaining balanced stats, it is just as foolish to stack one stat to the exclusion of the other. I favor Haste because I think, on average, it'll prove more useful in more encounters, but even still, I will not be dropping my Crit below 30% for Haste either.


  12. #52

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    This is a big crit vs haste argument, but what about Int. It will increase your crit (so SoL and Hc), your overall mana, and becasue of HC you are getting regen as well from it. Honestly, crit is probably worse than intellect in terms of overall healing going to be done from a raid healing perspective. From my experience, a haste-intellect balance is probably going to pull the highest heals (with sp of course). You get fast spells, more spells over a period of time, more crits too. Being balanced allows you to do many things at once. Of course this should all be adjusted to your style of play...

  13. #53

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by supa
    This is a big crit vs haste argument, but what about Int. It will increase your crit (so SoL and Hc), your overall mana, and becasue of HC you are getting regen as well from it. Honestly, crit is probably worse than intellect in terms of overall healing going to be done from a raid healing perspective. From my experience, a haste-intellect balance is probably going to pull the highest heals (with sp of course). You get fast spells, more spells over a period of time, more crits too. Being balanced allows you to do many things at once. Of course this should all be adjusted to your style of play...
    It takes 45 crit rating to get 1% critical effect.
    It takes 166 Intellect to get 1% critical effect (150.9 before Kings).

    There's not a chance that Intellect increases your output even anywhere near as much as Crit does. It's actually quite worse (but lets you go on for longer). If mana's not a concern (and depending on the fight, it usually isn't) haste helps you push out more, faster, and crit supplements that without taking over.

    For thoroughput? Intellect's a shitty stat. It's regen, with a little bit of crit tacked on, not the other way around.
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  14. #54

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Yes, that is true. However in general when building up stats, intellect will be a bad throughput stat, a great regen stat, and a great longevity stat. Haste will be the way to go once you can maintain the mana to do so.

  15. #55

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    There's a couple which I either missed, or skimmed past when reading blocks of repetitive text. The first portion is that 1% haste is always a higher throughput gain than 1% crit until you reach haste caps. The second is that 1% haste is cheaper than 1% crit. The third is that crits value decreases as you gain more crit, rather than increasing. The last part is that crit translates disproportionately into over-healing.

    Now, for the first issue about 1% haste being better than 1% crit at all times: Because Holy is reactive in nature, the ability to react faster is always functionally superior than having a chance that your reaction will have a slightly larger effect. The raw throughput part of this I'll cover in a little bit, but in terms of reliability and functionality haste is superior.

    The second issue is a minor one. Even if you don't accept that haste is functionally superior and more reliable then haste, you also have to consider this: 1% crit = 45.91 crit rating, while 1% haste = 32.79 haste rating. That means if 1% crit = 1% haste then haste rating is 40% better than crit.

    The third should be fairly common knowledge by now. As you gain crit it translates normal 100% hits into larger 150% hits. This means at best a crit is a 50% gain per 1%. However, this actually scales down as you gain a higher crit chance. The good old simple breakdown is to use 100 hits of 1 and incorporate crits for 1.5. So 0% crit gets a score of 100, while say 20% crit gets a score of 110. 80 hits of 1 and 20 crits for 1.5. So the difference between 20 and 21% crit is .5, but that's not .5%, instead it's a .45% increase. If you then look at something more extreme like 40% crit the score is 120. However, the difference between 40% and 41% is still .5, but the actual percentage gain is .41%. The closer you get to 100% crit the less meaningful crit becomes. The last 1%, going from 99% to 100% is a score of 149.5 to 150. At this point 1% crit is only a .33% increase.

    Finally, in regard to the over-healing, some people don't care, but they ought to. There's no reason to look at over-healing and think you did a poor job. The issue is that crits increase in throughput comes purely from heal size. While haste can reduce over-healing through reaction speed, crit will almost invariably increase over-healing. This varies fight to fight, but it's something you should be keeping in mind. Look at a parse and note your over-healing. Now, if possible, look at how often your crit heals themselves over-heal. This is often in the neighborhood of 60%, but is different for every fight. A general rule of thumb is to look at your over-healing percentage from crit-capable spells and reduce the value of crit by that percentage. That's the raw value of your crit.

    So, say you're sitting at 30% crit and over-healing by a mere 40% (pretty decent these days). That means 1% crit for you would be a .43% increase, but 40% of that increase would be wasted. As such you need to drop that down to a .258% increase. Now, because haste actually is linear this means 1% crit = 45.91 rating = +.258% healing, while 1% haste = 32.79 rating = 1% healing. So, in this scenario 1 haste rating = 5.42 crit rating.

    With that in mind, I struggle to think of crit as a throughput stat. It's on the level of Spirit for throughput. Rather, what crit is used for by Holy is to fuel procs. So, upon reaching an acceptable up-time on Holy Conc crit becomes less than worthwhile. Instead, of thinking purely of throughput, you should be thinking of creating a functional synergy. Crit + Regen is going to give you crits and regen, but not much more. Haste + Regen on the other hand will allow you to spend more mana faster, while fueling that consumption with more mana.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Emokisse's Avatar
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    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Ok, after reading your, very very nice posts, I'm concerned about my own gemming. If it's not too much trouble I'd like some tips about how to re-gem. My gear is not optimal, I know.. but it's not THAT bad either.

    I'm not @ 700 haste yet, should I sacrifice some spellpower or Int to get more haste? Waiting eagerly to hear what you're saying.

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...=Emok%C3%ADsse
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  17. #57

    Re: Holy priest haste vs other stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Emokisse
    Ok, after reading your, very very nice posts, I'm concerned about my own gemming. If it's not too much trouble I'd like some tips about how to re-gem. My gear is not optimal, I know.. but it's not THAT bad either.

    I'm not @ 700 haste yet, should I sacrifice some spellpower or Int to get more haste? Waiting eagerly to hear what you're saying.

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...=Emok%C3%ADsse
    Although I am not a great expert on priests, I know that Nevermelting Ice Crystal is not a good holy priest trinket. Maybe a trinket with intellect or spell power would be much more beneficial. As for the haste, im not the expert but I would say that it is a very reachable goal for you, so go for it.

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