Why is it almost always the least skilled raiders that give you the best effort?

[Mixon]

Ok so the guild i'm in atm is a casual raiding guild. they like to go in and dick around on normal modes and stuff till they start wiping more than a time or two then they all start leaving and getting bored and going back to dailies and such.

so the last week or so i been trying to lead a few more "serious" raids, and im finding it alot more difficult that i expected givin the limited # of guild members i have to choose from. But, here is what really frustrates me. Ok so i'm one dps short of a full 10 man and everyone is anxious to get started even if it means grabbing a lvl 75 DK to fill the spot, lol well you know what i mean. so we gear a sub par dps and get started. OK so this guys dps blows but he is always happy to make any changes to his play style or strategy you suggest. He is ALWAYS prepared with food, flasks, and whatever else you can think and is more than willing to share with the raid. While the rest of the skilled players that you brought are grumbling about how much this trash blows and how other classes have it so easy he's just chugging along doing exactly what he is supposed to. So you get to the boss and make a few attempts and yeah the guy gets hit by fire a few time and dies but its not for lack of effort and hes always apologetic and take full responsibility and tell you everything hes going to do next time to make it better, while everyone else grumbles and complains about how there waisting there night they could be doing dailies or saying this place is just to hard for us we cant do it. well he makes it thru a few times but your always a few 100k short of the enrage timer and you start looking at recount and see hes a few kdps behind the rest of the dpsers. And this is where the problems start, you know if the rest of the raid would stop having whisper conversation while there raiding they could make up the extra 300k damage needed to kill him but its so easy to point the finger at the guy not pulling his weight. and then it becomes expected for you to replace in the interest of the group when hes the one of like 3 or 4 who actually care if you kill the boss or not, the rest are just there to kill some time that they pretend they dont have any of but whatever, i digress.

Im just asking why a few more of the skilled raiders cant even have half the dedication/excitement/whatever that the nubs do?

and this is new content im talking about not 3 month old stuff we have on farm.

im sry about the spelling and grammar but i hope its readable, anyways i dont have time proof read the whole thing.

[Phenomina]

Lazyiness, Ego's and doing content over and over are a few reason's why some of the raiders act like that.

I personally put effort into everything but each to there own I guess :-\

[Sunkiss]

I think somehow, some people lost the exitement for the game somewhere along the way.

I like that guy, the guy that always tries, and always has all consumables, might be a bit short on dps. But you wanna know what. He is having so much fun. And some people forgot about fun, sadly.

So, keep on bringing that one guy along, teach him how to play, be kind to him and believe in him, because one of these days, he might turn out to be the most valuable asset your raid group has.

[Windspast]

that's just the way it goes... some "skilled" raiders start to take things for granted. Or they get tired of having to do the same thing over and over and are just cynical and tired. Go thanks blizzard for that

But it works both ways though. It's not fair to generalize like that. Most nubs are nothing more than nubs who just expect to be carried.

[Maladie]

So, keep on bringing that one guy along, teach him how to play, be kind to him and believe in him, because one of these days, he might turn out to be the most valuable asset your raid group has.

This! People like this guy are the people you want on your raid. While they may not be the best players when it comes to "skill", they're dedicated, prepared and willing to learn/improve. Not to mention he probably has more fun than the grumphy raiders.

[velasius]

shit casuals with good attitude > elitist pricks.

[Izenhart]

It's not almost always, it's "sometimes" to me.


And it happens to be "Not that much skilled, but I give 120% of my effort" against the "I'm full gear already, cba moving from that fire". But that's just situational and really rare.

Else good luck trying any hardmodes with plenty of volenterous poor skilled guys rather than a badass geared setup of skilled players.

[Exera]

To be honest it doesn't actually seem like he is a bad player at all, more just a lack of raid experience and gear. It's this kind of player that breeds the really good raiders and if the rest of your guild doesn't start treating him with respect and show him that your guild is good and actually wanting to do something even if it's justc asual you will see him ending up in a serious raiding guild.

After reading your post it seems it's the "pro raiders" in your guild that is the actual bad players.

[sicness]

It's not almost always, it's "sometimes" to me.


And it happens to be "Not that much skilled, but I give 120% of my effort" against the "I'm full gear already, cba moving from that fire". But that's just situational and really rare.

Else good luck trying any hardmodes with plenty of volenterous poor skilled guys rather than a badass geared setup of skilled players.

This unfortunately is true. No matter how hard someone may be trying, if they can't do their role well enough then you have to find someone who can if it means getting hard modes down. I'm all for people who give it their best, but sometimes people's best just isn't enough.

[DaLeetPawner]

Currently in a guild thats growing and clearing ToC 10/25 every week.

Every time I see a new person join I always ask if he needs help with certain things. Because thats what u do.

Helping new people will get u way further then just sitting and hoping he knows everything.

Most "Skilled" raiders Ive met are ragers about loot, QQers when u wipe and yell at u when u wipe. They end up Fake DC'in and us getting a new guy and then downing the boss. Always laughing when the loot he needed drops

[sicness]

Currently in a guild thats growing and clearing ToC 10/25 every week.

Every time I see a new person join I always ask if he needs help with certain things. Because thats what u do.

Helping new people will get u way further then just sitting and hoping he knows everything.

Most "Skilled" raiders Ive met are ragers about loot, QQers when u wipe and yell at u when u wipe. They end up Fake DC'in and us getting a new guy and then downing the boss. Always laughing when the loot he needed drops

While I don't disapprove of anyone trying to help other people, you'll eventually find that it gets very tiring to teach people how to play. And at the moment, the way the game currently is designed, it's 10 times easier to gear up a skilled player than it is to teach a well geared player how to do their role. Especially right now, you can get in mostly t9 gear in less than a week.

[Mixon]

i never said he was a "bad" player just one with less skill.

and he has the gear..... but yeah i cant just kick someone is trying so hard when others arent even try....but then even tho there not trying there still doing better then he is.....you see what im saying?

and this in ICC 10 and TOC 10 (hard) im talking about.

i just got back from a 6 month break and am still in uld25 and naxx25 gear and am top dps in this guild< that all are in 245 with a few pieces of 232 stuff. so these are not exactly "pro" raiders im talking about. Perspective = im only doing about 6.5k to 7.5k dps on most fights (25 man content) so i dont even really consider myself terribly skilled atm.

[ewhenn]

i never said he was a "bad" player just one with less skill.

You should be a politician.

In my opinion: Performance > Personality.

[Imp]

Sadly, alot of the people who become good in raiding, pvping or any part of the game become elitit, just like everyone else said.

So they go from being excited to raid and to progress to think of themselves as gods, that they are more worth than people in blues or people without that fancy mount or title. Ive seen it happen to many people and fuck me its not fun when its people who you thought were nice.

[Izhara]

I have one rule I never, ever change when I'm leading, be it a 5-man or a raid: try your best and that's all I have any right to ask from you. I don't really care about the numbers as long as the boss goes down before everyone else does. So if that guy's trying his heart out, and the others can do better but are too busy being Chatty Cathy in /g, or in whispers, or in /raid, they're usually the ones that get the boot first because they aren't giving it their best shot then have the balls to blame it on the undergeared DPS who comes prepped, shares, and tries.

That being said, I'm also realistic enough that if we're regularly wiping on a boss because we can't beat the enrage timer, I'll talk to the undergeared guy, make sure he understands why I'm taking him out of this fight, and promise him I'll bring him back after we gear him up some more. I'll also tell everyone else to quit dicking around because it's as much the fault of that full t10.25-geared blockbuster not paying attention and doing nothing but mashing his Bladestorm button as it is the ret pally in t7 who's following their rotation/priorities/what-have-you, knows what cooldowns to pop when, knows where their oh shit keys are, and knows when to use them, but just doesn't have the gear or procs-per-minute to compete with everyone else.

[ploinks]

Sounds like the best raider in your group is the guy your saying has bad dps..

If you cant show up giving yourself ever guaranteed advantage you can (food flask etc) and learn from your mistakes, and have fun while you do it.. Why bother..

[Azyoulike]

I think this is more of an issue in more guilds/raids with very heterogeneous levels of gear/ability. The skilled/well geared people feel they're already carrying the noobs/scrubs so why bother flasking etc?

I'm not really sure this is elitism, true elitists wouldn't be willing to raid with anybody but other elitists - not for progress stuff. If they did raid with non-elitists they'd be even more elitist just to show the normal players how insanely good they were. Well that's what I'd do anyway

It's more like the smart kid at school who makes no effort, because he knows he's gonna come top anyway. Is he an elitist, or just a slacker? Would he slack as much in a school where everybody was as smart as him?

[Xikem]

Its nice to find refreshing people like that raider. Now-a-days people just run for gear and dont really expierence whats going on. Sure they go through the endgame at the time but they arent really into it. Whenever i lead a raid i make sure i grab a few people who really need the gear or really want to come because they are always going to put in as much as they can into what their doing because they want to be there for the sake being there unlike the usual guys who have done it several times and just want the emblems or w/e; Those kind of people are the ones who after one wipe usually respond with the following "QQ u nubs blow /leave group". It saddens me to see the state of the game now its moved away from being amazed in your environment and playing for the sake of fun and is now more about having the best gear and just bragging rights.

[billymont]

the slacker mentality is one that usually starts at the top, and by top i mean guild leader. i was in a guild with such a guy before and wipe a couple of times and he was over it. new guild with a different guild leader and his attitude is different. wipes only mean we're doing it wrong and what can we fix. this mentality tends to spread amongst the other raiders and continues to spread. there will always be one or two you can never motivate...that's what standby is for.