Demo help plz

[malkara]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...Orw_,q8p,10958
^That is a specc I suggested. Might be a worse specc than the Cookie-Cutter Demonology, but it is easier to understand than the current Demonology tree, at least in my opinion. Also, this specc should have enourmous damage on targets below 35%.

The reason you go demo is to improve your raid's dps with Demonic Pact, not to improve your own dps by going this hybrid. That at least, is my opinion

[~Thalia~]

A fast question, I know Demo is shad bolts but for when Molten core proc's should I swap to either Incin or SF (Target is above the execute range), Been bugging me since release>

Please Shed some light

Above 35% use 3x Incinerate during MC procs.
Below 35% juste keep spamming SF and a SB every 30 sec to keep up the ISB debuff

[Sanoku]

Use Meta. Quick Decay is... tricksy, and the dps gain from mastering "tricksy" is 60-80. Not worth it.

This is not true. The glyph of Quick Decay is a dps increase by a slight amount because with the Meta glyph you get 6 seconds more on Metamorphisis and in turn 6 seconds of a 2nd Immolation Aura.

HOWEVER the Glyph of Quick Decay not only makes corruption tick faster and do quicker damage but ALSO increases uptime on Molten Core thus squeezing out more dps. I'll tell you first hand I've seen way more MC procs by using it. So especially at 35% when I'm SF spamming I get more MC procs and GG 28k Soul Fires with a 1.7 second cast time.

Quick Decay > Meta

[Geomatician]

The reason you go demo is to improve your raid's dps with Demonic Pact, not to improve your own dps by going this hybrid. That at least, is my opinion

not just your opinion but fact.

This is not true. The glyph of Quick Decay is a dps increase by a slight amount because with the Meta glyph you get 6 seconds more on Metamorphisis and in turn 6 seconds of a 2nd Immolation Aura.

HOWEVER the Glyph of Quick Decay not only makes corruption tick faster and do quicker damage but ALSO increases uptime on Molten Core thus squeezing out more dps. I'll tell you first hand I've seen way more MC procs by using it. So especially at 35% when I'm SF spamming I get more MC procs and GG 28k Soul Fires with a 1.7 second cast time.

Quick Decay > Meta

I myself have seen many more MC procs I do agree with you on that, It is better than 6 more secs in meta.

[Neotrin]

I'd like to throw out a couple alternatives that you guys can calculate and discuss that have worked for me.

Starting with the glyphs, I use Life tap, quick decay, and incinerate. Life tap is almost mandatory until they remove spirit from dps gear and quick decay is quickly becoming a must also as people are realizing it's secondary benefits. With the increased Molten Core procs from the quick decay glyph, I've found incinerate glyph (5% more DAMAGE on what I use as a filler spell) to be better than felguard (20% more attack power which doesn't necessarily equate to damage).

With 5% more damage on Incinerate it does edge out Shadowbolt for dps.

My rotation or order of priority goes like this, and keep in mind I run mostly 10 mans so I provide as much raid utility as possible.

Open with CoE and leave it for 5 min
corruption - refresh immediately after fall off
Shadowbolt every 30 secs to maintain buff
Immolate - again refresh immediately after fall off
Incinerate - spam til Molten core procs
repeat

When Molten core procs (now is a good time to tell you I'm an engineer) either use haste trink, glove enchant, or pop haste potion and spam 3 Soul fires, I have been lucky enough to have Molten core proc back to back and been able to cast 6 Soul fires in the same hasted time frame for some very nice dps boosts above 35% mob health.

By using your first 3 Molten core procs this way it will help your dps during the first part of the fight and usually Blood lust is poped on bosses 2/3 to 3/4 dead when you can start spamming Soul fires during the execute phase.

[gherkin]

The reason people use Shadow Bolt is that it does decent damage, vs Incinerate which requires a Glyph, freeing up the slot for you to Glyph Immolate.

[Sanoku]

The reason people use Shadow Bolt is that it does decent damage, vs Incinerate which requires a Glyph, freeing up the slot for you to Glyph Immolate.

Except you don't glyph for immolate....

[~Thalia~]

Unless specced for Emberstorm, incinerate does less damage than SB, and Glyph of felguard > glyph of incinerate

[Sanoku]

Unless specced for Emberstorm, incinerate does less damage than SB, and Glyph of felguard > glyph of incinerate

Yes I'm assuming we are indeed talking about Demo in which case you do not use glyph of Immolate.

You also don't use it for Destro anyway so I don't understand the point.

Destro = Incinerate, Life Tap, Conflag.
Demo = Life Tap, Felguard, Quick Decay / Meta

So in no case do you use Immolate anymore was my point.

[Mix]

@Shawaam

I think there are a several issues with your hybrid build...

You provide NO raid utility.

Using imp with no emp imp so it's just his straight up dmg and you gain nothing.

Mana feed: has pet mana been an issue in raids for anyone? I know solo mine go oom but I have to replenishment soloing.

Even bosses don't live THAT long under 35%, especially with multiple classes with executes. I think a pure dps dest or aff build will net you more dmg than this hybrid you've posted.

Also, I cannot confirm this but I have heard that Molten core with Conflag may be bugged. Conflag not recognizing the length increase in immolate from the Molten core talent and thus doing much less dmg than it should on the initial hit. So you may want to test that out before running that build in a raid.

I am curious if you have any parses with that spec though. I just see some issues with it just looking at it. Doesn't mean everything doesn't balance out in the end.

[~Thalia~]

Yes I'm assuming we are indeed talking about Demo in which case you do not use glyph of Immolate.

You also don't use it for Destro anyway so I don't understand the point.

Destro = Incinerate, Life Tap, Conflag.
Demo = Life Tap, Felguard, Quick Decay / Meta

So in no case do you use Immolate anymore was my point.

There is a typo in gherkin's post, but I was commenting Neotrin's who said he used Incinerate as his filler spell and glyph of Incinerate.

[Sanoku]

There is a typo in gherkin's post, but I was commenting Neotrin's who said he used Incinerate as his filler spell and glyph of Incinerate.

Ah ok that makes a bit of more sense then.

[kidvicious]

Umm lets try what is it umm... Supression? Meaning that you need less hit on your gear leaving room for other stats such as spirit/sp haste or crit

just lol..

[~Thalia~]

Demonic empowerement is 7% bonus haste to your felguard, it is superior to 1 point in suppression.
It also is superior to IDT 3/3 which is a whopping 2% more crit for your felguard if you have 40% crit.

[Nyuu]

What else would you spend that point in? that last point in imp demo tactics is not worth dropping demo emp, that has been stated in many EJ forums the all mighty sim craft proves it for all you hard math people

Molten Core

[~Thalia~]

Molten Core

Well Molten Core should be maxed out at all costs, the talent is just a friggin dps boost.
That and it makes the playstyle much more enjoyable. Demonology Warlocks are the new Arms warrior !

[BartolGdH]

...and they don't even need to have arms (pun intended) :P

[Nyuu]

Let me clarify what i was trying to say.....


Most people are going to drop demonic emp for 3/3 Molten core on the "standard" demo build.

[Neotrin]

Ok, I'll admit you guys have me second guessing myself, but it just doesn't make any sense.

I'd like to see it mathematically proven.

The debate: Is spamming Shadowbolt and using Glyph of Felguard better OR spamming Incinerate with the Glyph of Incinerate.

Assumptions:
other glyphs are life tap and quick decay
lock has 20% haste and 30% crit, and 3k spell power
mob has 25% melee reduction from armor
to keep the math simple meta and demonic empowerment are not used
curse of elements, corruption, immolate, and the proc from improved shadowbolt are up 100% of the time.
Molten core procs off of one tick every other corruption cast.
fight lasts 5 min

That should about cover all the variables

I just can't believe that Shadowbolt (2.5 sec cast after bane with a raw top end damage of 770) is better than incinerate (2.5 sec cast with a raw top end damage of 676 + 169 if immolate is on target = 845) after player stats are equally applied. Then apply the glyph to incinerate and add 5% spell damage which blasts right through armor, and compare it to glyph of felguard which increases attack power (not direct damage) by 20% but is then reduced by the mobs armor because all of the felguards abilities are physical.

doesn't make any sense!!!

[gherkin]

No math required

... LOAD DAMN YOU...
YELLING SEEMS TO WORK SO IM GOING TO YELL MORE UNTI-There we go.

Base Profile:
http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=18859247

Simcraft with Glyph of Felguard:

Player: Warlockt9005615 undead warlock demonology 80
 DPS: 9848.0 Error=14.2 Range=750 DPR=27.2 RPS=361.7/298.1 (mana)
 Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=18859247#talents
 Core Stats: strength=319|68(10) agility=327|75(10) stamina=1856|1358(1146) intellect=1540|1296(1139) spirit=1042|823(652) health=25590|20965 mana=27360|23590
 Spell Stats: power=4677|3177(3177) hit=14.03%|14.03%(368) crit=37.49%|31.03%(530) penetration=0|0(0) haste=36.15%|18.57%(609) mp5=0|0(0)
 Attack Stats power=1185|58(0) hit=11.22%|11.22%(368) crit=25.67%|15.65%(530) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=55.61%|18.57%(609)
 Defense Stats: armor=2821|2317(2167) blockv=160|34(0) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
 Glyphs: felguard/metamorphosis/life_tap
 Priorities:
  flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felguard
  snapshot_stats/life_tap,buff_refresh=1/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
  demonic_empowerment/life_tap,trigger=14000,health_percentage>=35,metamorphosis=0
  metamorphosis/immolation/corruption/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90
  curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=28/immolate/soul_fire,decimation=1
  incinerate,molten_core=1/shadow_bolt
  life_tap,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
  corruption,time_to_die>=20,moving=1/curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=30,moving=1
  life_tap
 Actions:
  corruption     Count= 16.2|18.91sec DPE= 10089| 6% DPET= 8515 DPR= 18.7 pDPS= 544 Miss=0.00% TickCount=94 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1734|1551|2087
  curse_of_agony   Count= 1.5|24.62sec DPE= 10451| 1% DPET= 9265 DPR= 27.1 pDPS= 51 Miss=0.00% TickCount=17 MissTick=0.0% Tick=879|772|1029
  curse_of_doom   Count= 4.2|60.93sec DPE= 22279| 3% DPET= 18520 DPR= 38.5 pDPS= 309 Miss=0.00% TickCount=4 MissTick=0.0% Tick=22490|20796|26371
  immolate      Count= 12.2|25.07sec DPE= 16605| 7% DPET= 13606 DPR= 25.4 pDPS= 673 Miss=0.00% Hit=2163|1894|2512 Crit= 4514| 3958| 5251|45.9% TickCount=94 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1737|1507|2050
  immolation     Count= 6.0|57.10sec DPE= 19416| 4% DPET= 16163 DPR=  7.9 pDPS= 387 Miss=0.00% TickCount=65 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1775|1724|1872
  incinerate     Count= 21.7| 8.23sec DPE= 10096| 7% DPET= 7424 DPR= 18.7 pDPS= 729 Miss=0.00% Hit=6737|6025|7893 Crit=14074|12591|16496|45.8%
  reign_of_the_dead Count= 33.2|17.44sec DPE= 2738| 3% DPET=   1 DPR=  0.0 pDPS= 303 Miss=0.00% Hit=2187|2059|2316 Crit= 3382| 3181| 3578|46.2%
  shadow_bolt    Count= 74.4| 2.89sec DPE= 10352|26% DPET= 5417 DPR= 15.8 pDPS=2566 Miss=0.00% Hit=6903|6175|8104 Crit=14428|12907|16937|45.8%
  soul_fire     Count= 39.5| 1.98sec DPE= 15749|21% DPET= 9770 DPR= 45.4 pDPS=2075 Miss=0.00% Hit=10060|8285|13523 Crit=21428|17315|28264|50.0%
  felguard (DPS=2212.2)
  cleave       Count= 50.5| 6.00sec DPE= 2617| 4% DPET= 1586 DPR=  7.9 pDPS= 441 Miss=0.00% Hit=1877|1223|1979 Crit= 3758| 2447| 3959|40.4% Dodge=1.1%
  felguard_melee   Count=206.1| 1.45sec DPE= 2576|18% DPET= 1773 DPR=  0.0 pDPS=1770 Miss=0.00% Hit=1865|1191|1964 Crit= 3731| 2383| 3929|45.2% Glance=1400|24.0% Dodge=1.1%

Simcraft with Glyph of Incinerate + filler change to Incinerate:

Player: Warlockt9005615 undead warlock demonology 80
 DPS: 9208.4 Error=14.6 Range=684 DPR=27.6 RPS=334.0/270.3 (mana)
 Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=18859247#talents
 Core Stats: strength=319|68(10) agility=327|75(10) stamina=1856|1358(1146) intellect=1540|1296(1139) spirit=1042|823(652) health=25590|20965 mana=27360|23590
 Spell Stats: power=4677|3177(3177) hit=14.03%|14.03%(368) crit=37.49%|31.03%(530) penetration=0|0(0) haste=36.15%|18.57%(609) mp5=0|0(0)
 Attack Stats power=1185|58(0) hit=11.22%|11.22%(368) crit=25.67%|15.65%(530) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=55.61%|18.57%(609)
 Defense Stats: armor=2821|2317(2167) blockv=160|34(0) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
 Glyphs: incinerate/metamorphosis/life_tap
 Priorities:
  flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felguard
  snapshot_stats/life_tap,buff_refresh=1/wild_magic_potion,bloodlust=1
  demonic_empowerment/life_tap,trigger=14000,health_percentage>=35,metamorphosis=0
  metamorphosis/immolation/corruption/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90
  curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=28/immolate/soul_fire,decimation=1
  incinerate,molten_core=1/incinerate
  life_tap,mana_percentage<=20,buff_refresh=1,moving=1
  corruption,time_to_die>=20,moving=1/curse_of_agony,time_to_die>=30,moving=1
  life_tap
 Actions:
  corruption     Count= 16.1|19.03sec DPE= 10081| 6% DPET= 8530 DPR= 18.7 pDPS= 540 Miss=0.00% TickCount=94 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1733|1551|2087
  curse_of_agony   Count= 1.2|24.68sec DPE= 10327| 0% DPET= 9159 DPR= 26.8 pDPS= 40 Miss=0.00% TickCount=14 MissTick=0.0% Tick=876|772|1029
  curse_of_doom   Count= 4.3|61.06sec DPE= 21599| 3% DPET= 17929 DPR= 37.4 pDPS= 312 Miss=0.00% TickCount=4 MissTick=0.0% Tick=22545|20796|26371
  immolate      Count= 12.1|25.12sec DPE= 16599| 7% DPET= 13598 DPR= 25.3 pDPS= 672 Miss=0.00% Hit=2162|1894|2512 Crit= 4523| 3958| 5251|45.6% TickCount=93 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1738|1507|2050
  immolation     Count= 6.0|57.11sec DPE= 19482| 4% DPET= 16232 DPR=  7.9 pDPS= 387 Miss=0.00% TickCount=66 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1773|1724|1872
  incinerate     Count= 97.9| 2.24sec DPE= 9329|33% DPET= 5150 DPR= 17.3 pDPS=3044 Miss=0.00% Hit=6224|5226|8288 Crit=13027|10902|17321|45.6%
  reign_of_the_dead Count= 32.9|17.58sec DPE= 2731| 3% DPET=   1 DPR=  0.0 pDPS= 300 Miss=0.00% Hit=2188|2059|2316 Crit= 3378| 3181| 3578|45.6%
  soul_fire     Count= 37.9| 1.96sec DPE= 15761|22% DPET= 9863 DPR= 45.4 pDPS=1990 Miss=0.00% Hit=10089|8285|13523 Crit=21560|17315|28264|49.4%
  felguard (DPS=1925.1)
  cleave       Count= 50.5| 6.00sec DPE= 2281| 4% DPET= 1383 DPR=  6.9 pDPS= 384 Miss=0.00% Hit=1644|1098|1728 Crit= 3286| 2197| 3456|40.0% Dodge=1.1%
  felguard_melee   Count=206.1| 1.45sec DPE= 2241|17% DPET= 1542 DPR=  0.0 pDPS=1539 Miss=0.00% Hit=1618|1057|1701 Crit= 3237| 2113| 3402|45.5% Glance=1214|23.9% Dodge=1.1%

Summary: Glyph of Felguard accounts for ~300 dps, and Shadow Bolt (5417 DPET) is still better than a Glyphed Incinerate (5150 DPET) you spam the shit out of even during MC procs.


Shadow Bolt just hits that much harder. Sorry.