Warlock PvE Destro - how much crit?

[gherkin]

*stuff*

I'm going to be one of "those guys" and ask: What kind of parse do you want?

[Modez]

Here is one thread about haste and crit.

Here are some tests I did personally.

[nocturnus]

I'm going to be one of "those guys" and ask: What kind of parse do you want?

For example, WoL parse of a warlock that itemizes towards crit compared to warlocks that itemize specifically towards haste. You do know modus, that the links you pasted actually show that you gain more from haste than from crit in raid environment specifically? So, what are we discussion exactly here?

Conclusion: Itemize towards haste. Whatever crit you get from gear without specifically itemizing for it, whatever crit you get from buffs and debuffs, is more than enough when you're min-maxing, thus aiming for highest dps possible.

If you disagree - fine

[Modez]

The posts that I linked show that as a fight shortens in length, crit becomes more valuable. In my gear set specifically, 75s and below seemed there were points where crit would benefit more than haste.

To interpret this we can't say that, as an example, Marrowgar is a 3-6 minute fight even though it takes 3-6 minutes to kill. It is a fight where you:

DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.
DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.
DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.
Run away, possibly out of range and not DPSing.
DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.
DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.
DPS boss for 15sec.
Kill spike for 5 sec.

and so on.

So, in effect, you are fighting these very short "mini" fights where crit and haste may fall into these under 75s scaling factors. This is in contrast to the ranged DPSes role on Deathwhisperer. We can primarily target the boss, with light target swapping for melee immune targets or when the 'big ugly' adds spawn, but otherwise primarily a tank-and-spank encounter.

I am not advocating that crit is better than haste, or the opposite. I am saying that when someone runs sim tests and use those results to conclude 'haste is always better than crit' that this statement isn't accurate. That is not to say to strictly itemize for one or the other, but for 'optimum' results given that on a boss per boss basis has different mechanics and required movement/target swapping, a good balance is more prudent without exclusion of one or the other. That way you aren't real high on boss X and real low on boss Y.

[nocturnus]

boss per boss basis has different mechanics and required movement/target swapping, a good balance is more prudent without exclusion of one or the other. That way you aren't real high on boss X and real low on boss Y.

I agree on what you said but the quoted. That's where you're actually wrong. There is no need to balance these stats. You actually can blindly stack haste without worrying about crit. Because you 'automatically' gain more than enough to reach a point where crit is close to worthless.

Also, on add killing crit will never be bottle-neck. I think you didn't mean it that way either, but just in case, when it comes to adds it's about all assigned people doing their job and about 'balancing' this stat.

[Modez]

I agree on what you said but the quoted. That's where you're actually wrong. There is no need to balance these stats. You actually can blindly stack haste without worrying about crit. Because you 'automatically' gain more than enough to reach a point where crit is close to worthless.

I think we are having a disconnect on the first part. If we are to blindly stack haste, as you say, then you can look at the gear drops in ICC that have haste only. If this is the case, then you may forgo items that have haste and crit on them (aside from tier gear [weird itemization ftl]), and if all the crit you have was on tier gear, you wouldn't be at or close to the 30%ish (which I am not necessarily agreeing with) mark.

There are many items that have haste+Spr that are non-tier items. There are some weapons that also are haste weapons that do not have crit. If you kept crit to only 4 tier items and your wrists (there are no haste wrists in ICC 10 or 25), you would be well below 30%. This in turn would have a detrimental effect on your DPS.

I ahve read your last posts when you use terminology as 'blindly stack haste' to therefore mean 'never even think of crit'. If this is what in fact you are implying and someone follows this model and therefore only does haste+spr items they would hurt themselves, which was my point of rebuttal.

I think if you clarified this you will find that we are actually all on the same page, but misinterpretation of meaning may have been derived from the words chosen.

Also, on add killing crit will never be bottle-neck. I think you didn't mean it that way either, but just in case, when it comes to adds it's about all assigned people doing their job and about 'balancing' this stat.

On your second point you are correct in assuming I did not mean 'if you don't stack crit adds won't die'. I was simply meaning that you may find pockets of DPS while having to do adds higher if you ahve more crit than the next guy - but that is assuming similar haste values as well, even if your haste values are slightly under theirs.

[nocturnus]

I think we are having a disconnect on the first part. If we are to blindly stack haste, as you say, then you can look at the gear drops in ICC that have haste only. If this is the case, then you may forgo items that have haste and crit on them (aside from tier gear [weird itemization ftl]), and if all the crit you have was on tier gear, you wouldn't be at or close to the 30%ish (which I am not necessarily agreeing with) mark.

There are many items that have haste+Spr that are non-tier items. There are some weapons that also are haste weapons that do not have crit. If you kept crit to only 4 tier items and your wrists (there are no haste wrists in ICC 10 or 25), you would be well below 30%. This in turn would have a detrimental effect on your DPS.

I ahve read your last posts when you use terminology as 'blindly stack haste' to therefore mean 'never even think of crit'. If this is what in fact you are implying and someone follows this model and therefore only does haste+spr items they would hurt themselves, which was my point of rebuttal.

I think if you clarified this you will find that we are actually all on the same page, but misinterpretation of meaning may have been derived from the words chosen.


On your second point you are correct in assuming I did not mean 'if you don't stack crit adds won't die'. I was simply meaning that you may find pockets of DPS while having to do adds higher if you ahve more crit than the next guy - but that is assuming similar haste values as well.

In general crit is combined with spirit on items. You have an item with crit and spirit and one with haste only, or haste and some crit. Highly valued items have all three stats.

You understood me pretty well. I did mean you never need to think about crit. Think along with me now:
Your priority is haste, if you need to make a choice, between haste and crit, you can simply ignore crit and go for haste, blindly, without ever second guessing the validity of your choice. Were you to come across an item with both, the choice is obvious, you take it. As I said before, crit isn't a bad stat, you shouldn't AVOID crit. You just shouldn't itemize towards it, not at the cost of haste. You'll notice that when itemizing towards haste, you gain enough crit from your tier and hybrid items (meaning items containing both haste as crit). So head to head, you never have to make a choice with stat balance in mind when it comes to haste and crit. In ICC things are likely to be the same. Unless items drastically drop crit rating, which considering the T10 alone, shouldn't be a problem anyway.

[Modez]

Right, and I agree with you - and I think you'll find others such as Zuxia will as well. This was the conclusion we reached when discussing this topic across several threads a couple months back when people were saying similar things as you did (though as you say now you didn't mean exactly that way) which may be interpreted as others who may not understand the crit vs haste debate as well. So when these things crop up, we try to substantiate the statement for others who will read these threads to get to the actual point as you just stated. That point is simply: haste is better than crit, but under no circumstances gear only for haste.

If you do take a look at the ICC loot lists across 10 and 25s you will see that the gear is much different here than in ToC.

- You have the option to pick a crit/hit/sp 1h or a haste/hit/sp.
- On most items you can go haste/crit/SP, haste/spr/SP or crit/spr/SP in a given slot. Crit/spr/SP isn't bound solely as ToC was.

I jsut didn't want people to stumble along this and take away they should never go for the haste/crit/SP option in favor of the haste/spr/SP every time.

Just for future reference, to someone who understands the issue using the terminology of 'blindly stack haste' means something different to someone who doesn't fully understand the issue.

Doesn't-understand-the-issue-guy may do only haste/spr/SP gear and never do haste/crit/SP if it is possible which would be hurt int he long run [if stacked to hugely lopsided levels]. Understands-the-issue-guy will interperate that into haste scales better than crit, but still knows crit shouldn't be fully avoided like the plague.

Putting it in more detailed terms may help other forum-goers and reduce the chance that we all misunderstand each other so that we can all help each other more as a whole.

[nocturnus]

hurt int he long run [if stacked to hugely lopsided levels]. Understands-the-issue-guy will interperate that into haste scales better than crit, but still knows crit shouldn't be fully avoided like the plague.

Well, you put it nicely. But still, I think to know that I will never, ever be in the position to have to choose between crit/spr/SP and haste/spr/SP. The haste variant is the obvious choice. The total raid buffed crit rating will just never be low enough to substantiate the choice of the first one over the latter.

But I'll keep an open mind and accept the possibility that I'm wrong, is a virtual reality

[gherkin]

Scale factors spit out by Simcraft, as Destro in my gear as soon as 3.3 went live. 595 Crit, 590 Haste

15 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.5698	1.5246	1.8166	0.0000	1.5283	1.2405
Normalized	0.0000	0.3136	0.8393	1.0000	0.0000	0.8413	0.6828

60 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.5007	1.3375	1.8567	0.0000	1.0218	1.7199
Normalized	0.0000	0.2697	0.7204	1.0000	0.0000	0.5503	0.9263

180 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.3100	1.0569	1.6697	0.0000	0.6909	1.1012
Normalized	0.0000	0.1857	0.6330	1.0000	0.0000	0.4138	0.6595

Manually set Crit to 200 and Haste to 985 (-395 / + 395), same runs:

15 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.5958	1.3603	2.0530	0.0000	1.3644	1.6249
Normalized	0.0000	0.2902	0.6626	1.0000	0.0000	0.6646	0.7915

60 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.1247	1.0676	1.7679	0.0000	0.8420	1.0436
Normalized	0.0000	0.0706	0.6039	1.0000	0.0000	0.4763	0.5903

180 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.1523	0.9546	1.6526	0.0000	0.7621	1.1797
Normalized	0.0000	0.0922	0.5776	1.0000	0.0000	0.4611	0.7138

Manually set Crit to 985 and Haste to 200:

15 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.7424	1.5572	2.3220	0.0000	1.5232	2.4340
Normalized	0.0000	0.3197	0.6706	1.0000	0.0000	0.6560	1.0482

60 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.2677	1.1953	1.7812	0.0000	0.9611	1.5979
Normalized	0.0000	0.1503	0.6711	1.0000	0.0000	0.5396	0.8971

180 second fight:

		Sta	Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste
Scale Factors	0.0000	0.2751	1.1225	1.6777	0.0000	0.6981	1.8057
Normalized	0.0000	0.1640	0.6691	1.0000	0.0000	0.4161	1.0763

Summary:
Crit is worth less and less as the length of the fight goes on.
Haste bounces around, due to cooldown timings, but remains consistently high.

If we were to do this for every 10 values of Haste and Crit, we would see Crit quickly deteriorate while Haste deteriorates much slower.

[nocturnus]

I appreciate you having gone through the trouble to present these numbers even if they were presented various times before.

Thanks! I always said you were a patient guy

[Bluey111]

At the moment on my lock i have about 600-620 haste and roughly 24-26% Crit (can't remember just woke up lol) and i always top DPS in a raid or come in top 3, i can do 5k DPS unbuffed on a target dummy as well (Heroic dummy), in my opinion take what you get and work with it, but generally i like haste better then crit since destro locks have alot of things to improve crit and alot of procs which make you crit so i feel our crit doesnt need to be that high or you might take agro off tanks very quickly lol

And also keep in mind that crit is only a CHANCE, sure the CHANCE gets better if you improve crit but actually will not gurantee a critical hit

[zuxia]

Noc-- I don't know what armory or wow-heroes gear it has me saved in -- I use different sets for the mechanics of boss fights, trash, heroics...but it is hyjal -- zuxia..if your that interested.