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  1. #21

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    There is a point where MF > MB at very high amounts of haste, maybe with 4pc T10 you might get close... i haven't done the numbers yet.
    Enough haste to get MB down to 1 sec cast will cause a MF2 to be cast in about 1.11s(w/ 4pc t10). It is a rough estimate, but gives a good point to start from.

  2. #22

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Cham
    That's just terrible.

    Congratulations on your extra 2 dps.
    Sorry but you need to run the math, 1 extra fiend in a 6 minute fight vs 3 inner focus macroed into MF doesn't compute.
    i.e if you MF ticks for 1700 and you gain a 25% crit chance acroos 9 ticks you will on average gain 2.25 x 1700 damage=3825 damage average in a 6 minute fight, plus you dont loose the CD from casting the fiend again which when outputting 7k dps is another 9k dps done (assuming 20% haste), does your fend do 12.8k dos and do you cast it religiously on CD?

  3. #23

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    Enough haste to get MB down to 1 sec cast will cause a MF2 to be cast in about 1.11s(w/ 4pc t10). It is a rough estimate, but gives a good point to start from.
    Thats not right, for MB to hit a 1 second cast time you would need 50% haste or something approaching 1750 haste rating... while that may be physically possible if you were to itemise and gem for pure haste, doing so would be a very inneffecient gear strategy.

    It's more likely that we might see 1K to 1.1K haste rating at the top end... + 8% haste from raid buffs will equate to a maximum of 40% haste (thats rounding up some estimations instead of physically working everything out via formula).

    At 40% haste rating a MF cast will be something around 2.2 seconds less the 0.5 seconds for 4pc T10 will see MF at 1.6 to 1.7 sec at absolute best.

    I know at the moment that my MF is about 9.2K total damage (ie 3 ticks) vs about 6K for MB. In this scenario MF > MB but not by a massive amount. Keep in mind that I havent' factored in SP upgrades in gear and MF does have a better coeffecient, so with that in mind, pure speculation here, MF will probably be superior to MB... however thats a long way to go and I highly doubt there is anyone in the world with the stats to say MF is > MB.

    It's certainly something i'll keep an eye on but it's not really relevant at this moment in time.

  4. #24

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Thats not right, for MB to hit a 1 second cast time you would need 50% haste or something approaching 1750 haste rating... while that may be physically possible if you were to itemise and gem for pure haste, doing so would be a very inneffecient gear strategy.

    It's more likely that we might see 1K to 1.1K haste rating at the top end... + 8% haste from raid buffs will equate to a maximum of 40% haste (thats rounding up some estimations instead of physically working everything out via formula).

    At 40% haste rating a MF cast will be something around 2.2 seconds less the 0.5 seconds for 4pc T10 will see MF at 1.6 to 1.7 sec at absolute best.

    I know at the moment that my MF is about 9.2K total damage (ie 3 ticks) vs about 6K for MB. In this scenario MF > MB but not by a massive amount. Keep in mind that I havent' factored in SP upgrades in gear and MF does have a better coeffecient, so with that in mind, pure speculation here, MF will probably be superior to MB... however thats a long way to go and I highly doubt there is anyone in the world with the stats to say MF is > MB.

    It's certainly something i'll keep an eye on but it's not really relevant at this moment in time.
    Note that I said a MF2, meaning casting MF for only the first 2 hits. But yea, a MF @ 50% haste will be cast in 1.66seconds.

    1.66s x 2/3rd = 1.1s

  5. #25

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    my bad, this should work

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...12023152301351

    effectively the OPs spec with 3/3 focused mind removed for 2 points in IST adn 1 point left over for whatever u like
    This

    I currently have the left over point in FM but I'm thinking of putting it in Shadow Affinity because of the increased threat from our new full time VE.
    Drunk toddlers in a dryer

  6. #26

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    Note that I said a MF2, meaning casting MF for only the first 2 hits. But yea, a MF @ 50% haste will be cast in 1.66seconds.

    1.66s x 2/3rd = 1.1s
    No at 50% haste a MF channel will be 2 seconds or 1.5 seconds with 4pc T10. Note that haste describes an increase in casting speed not a reduction in cast time (even though that's the side effect).

    If you can cast 50% quicker it means you can cast 50% more of the same spell in the same amount of time... so given you could cast 100 MFs, increasing the amount of casts would mean 150 Mfs... now MF is a 3 sec cast unhasted so it would take 300 seconds to cast 100 Mfs, as you can see 300 seconds to cast 150 MFs now means the cast time must be 2 seconds.

    I have no idea where you got 1.66 from.

  7. #27

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    No at 50% haste a MF channel will be 2 seconds or 1.5 seconds with 4pc T10. Note that haste describes an increase in casting speed not a reduction in cast time (even though that's the side effect).

    If you can cast 50% quicker it means you can cast 50% more of the same spell in the same amount of time... so given you could cast 100 MFs, increasing the amount of casts would mean 150 Mfs... now MF is a 3 sec cast unhasted so it would take 300 seconds to cast 100 Mfs, as you can see 300 seconds to cast 150 MFs now means the cast time must be 2 seconds.

    I have no idea where you got 1.66 from.
    Ok, I'll show you the math. All math is done for 4pc t10
    With this Formula:


    New Cast Time = Base Cast Time / (Haste Source 1)(Haste source 2)(Haste source n)
    New Cast Time = 2.5s / (1 + 3/100)(1 + 5/100)(1 + 1269/3279) = 2.5s / (103%)(105%)(138.69%)
    New Cast Time = 2.5s / 1.5 = 2.5s / 150%
    New Cast Time = 1.67s

    Now to confirm this:
    100s encounter / 2.5s base caste time of MF = 40 MF cast in 100s

    To get a 50% increase in number of casts of MF:
    40 MF x 150% = 60 MF

    To get 60 MF in 100 seconds, you will need:
    100s / x cast time of MF = 60 MF
    100s = (60 MF)(x cast time of MF)
    x cast time of MF = 1.67s

    Something I notice that you do is subtract the 0.5s of 4pc t10 after all haste calculations have been accounted for. You do not do that. Base cast time is calculated after talents(and now set bonuses) like Divine Fury in the holy tree, Light's Grace in paladin's holy tree, and Lightning Mastery in shaman's ele tree.

  8. #28

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    My mistake, I obviously go confused you were talking about 4pc T10 MF cast time only and I also obviously got how spell time reductions relate to haste incorrect.

    I'm pretty sure you could have just said that part instead of linking a formula as someway of appearing loftier than me however...

  9. #29

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    My mistake, I obviously go confused you were talking about 4pc T10 MF cast time only and I also obviously got how spell time reductions relate to haste incorrect.

    I'm pretty sure you could have just said that part instead of linking a formula as someway of appearing loftier than me however...
    My first post I did mention the use of 4pc t10, but the post with all the math, I noticed what you did after I typed all the math and did not want to feel like I just wasted all the typing for something that could be said in a few sentences.

  10. #30

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    my bad, this should work

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...12023152301351

    effectively the OPs spec with 3/3 focused mind removed for 2 points in IST adn 1 point left over for whatever u like
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...12023152301351

    Thats what I use... I dont see why you would use anything else. Its not like mana is usually an issue.

  11. #31

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    My first post I did mention the use of 4pc t10, but the post with all the math, I noticed what you did after I typed all the math and did not want to feel like I just wasted all the typing for something that could be said in a few sentences.
    Im not disputing that I just got confused that the figures you were displaying included that for whatever reason... shock horror I do make mistakes.

  12. #32

    Re: Opinions on this shadow spec

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...12023152301351

    Thats what I use... I dont see why you would use anything else. Its not like mana is usually an issue.
    If you're rocking nearly 35% raid buffed haste and you are multi-dotting and casting at max dps burn your mana pool is slightly small. Just means you need to fiend far more effeciently and occasionally look for opportunities to use dispersion... i'm not saying its a massive issue but when you compare our mana in 3.2 to 3.3 it's certainly a lot smaller.

    With that in mind I think investement in some mana conservation talents is prudent. Perhaps later on in ICC it goes back to being completely irrelevant but at this early stage if you can't go oom I would argue that you haven't itemised for enough haste or you are not casting the max number of spells possible and thus conserving mana by not being at maximum dps capacity.

    Unfortunetly I can't see your spec, either the link is bugged or the site is down at the moment. I'll have to check later and see what it is you did exactly... i'm not sure if you're advocating for 0 points in ST/IST or not... I think these are mandatory now due to the fact it now provides a decent DPS proc (from where it used to be) and without the talent any stat weights at shadowpriest.com will be innacurate because the value of spirit assumes these talents.


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