1. #1

    A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Hi,

    I googled a bit this morning but couldn't really find the information I needed. Most of it was outdated aswell.

    I'm willing to know:

    Are there any weights for holy icc, like EJ had them for my rogue in TBC?

    What's the stats order of most important > less important?

    I saw a good holy priest on my server, gemming for crit. He was around 600 haste. What is the 'soft' haste cap again? Shouldn't there be better gems than pure crit (yes, it was in yellow sockets, maybe green/orange?), as I have always found crit a fucky stats, and laughed at anyone purely gemming for it.

    I am trying to get enough haste that, with my discipline 6% haste talent and PI up, my globals are as close to 1 sec as possible. I don't know if I have to multiply, wqeky, ewjqhekqw or whatever here, so could anyone tell me, how much haste (and haste %) will mean PI + 6% talent + the haste I got = 1.00 or 1.01?

    I want to get spell pene 'capped' (130), should I spell pene better than any stat, until I am capped (trying to figure out what enchants, pene gems/offhand/wand, etc)?

    I feel a bit sorry for the questions. I know they aren't exactly hard (for you), but I find this to be the best source for information and I will use this thread for selecting and gemming my gear.

    Thanks in advance

    -
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&cn=Jeffx

  2. #2

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    There are no PP values for healing specs, just generalizations that vary depending on what you need.

    Don't gem for crit as a thoroughput stat, haste and straight up SP are most reliable.

    Ask Kelesti about holy and haste cap, stay away from Areohvee's advice.

    To find out how much haste you need from gear, you can find X from this formula

    1 second = (1.5 seconds)/((haste % source 1)(haste % source 2)(haste % source n)(1 + (x/3279))

    Is your disc spec PvE or PvP? That could change some stuff.

  3. #3

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Areohvee
    a wild troll appears
    _Fight >Item
    _PkMn _Run.


    >Pokéball

    You throw a Pokéball.

    Aww, it broke free.

    The wild troll runs away.
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  4. #4

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    OP: As far as your questions are concerned, I can (and almost did) answer with a long wall of text that probably doesn't have any relevance until you clarify which questions are Discipline related, which ones are Holy related, and which are PvP. You started off as Holy, but then you moved away from that.
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  5. #5

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    if your looking for a list i would say

    Spell power
    haste
    INT
    crit
    spirit


    spirit and INT however gain value like HIT does when you drop below a certain point. That point for healers is not having enough regen or mana pool to make it to the end of encounters.
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  6. #6

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Hello,

    thanks for (all) the kind replies.

    I will be a bit more detailed whether it's for PvP or PvE:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffx
    Hi,

    I googled a bit this morning but couldn't really find the information I needed. Most of it was outdated aswell.

    I'm willing to know:

    Are there any weights for holy icc, like EJ had them for my rogue in TBC? PvE holy

    What's the stats order of most important > less important? PvE holy

    I saw a good holy priest on my server, gemming for crit. He was around 600 haste. What is the 'soft' haste cap again? Shouldn't there be better gems than pure crit (yes, it was in yellow sockets, maybe green/orange?), as I have always found crit a fucky stats, and laughed at anyone purely gemming for it. PvE holy

    I am trying to get enough haste that, with my discipline 6% haste talent and PI up, my globals are as close to 1 sec as possible. I don't know if I have to multiply, wqeky, ewjqhekqw or whatever here, so could anyone tell me, how much haste (and haste %) will mean PI + 6% talent + the haste I got = 1.00 or 1.01? I'm BAD at calculations, help!

    I want to get spell pene 'capped' (130), should I spell pene better than any stat, until I am capped (trying to figure out what enchants, pene gems/offhand/wand, etc)? Disc PvP

    I feel a bit sorry for the questions. I know they aren't exactly hard (for you), but I find this to be the best source for information and I will use this thread for selecting and gemming my gear.

    Thanks in advance

    -
    Thanks for the help
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&cn=Jeffx

  7. #7
    Dreadlord
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    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    As said upthread, there aren't really generalized stat-weights for Priests like there are for other classes because it really depends on what you need. If you need mana Intellect is great, but if you don't, Intellect is poor. That said, here's roughly what I would say are the two most common situations:

    In terms of how much mana you get from each stat: Int > Spirit > MP5 > Crit > SP > Haste
    In terms of how much throughput you get from each stat: SP > Haste > Crit > Spirit > Int > MP5



    With regard to your Haste soft-cap question, there isn't one for Holy except, I guess, for the GCD during Heroism one. It's really not something I would worry about unless you're stacking it to silly levels. There IS a Haste soft-cap for Discipline though, which is bound by Borrowed Time on PWS spam which, IIRC, is around 4.6-5% on gear.

    I would never gem Crit on gear because you'll always get better results from another gem. If you need throughput, Intellect is better and provides roughly 1/3 the Crit rating per point as well. If you need throughput, Haste is usually better IMO.

  8. #8

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    As said upthread, there aren't really generalized stat-weights for Priests like there are for other classes because it really depends on what you need. If you need mana Intellect is great, but if you don't, Intellect is poor. That said, here's roughly what I would say are the two most common situations:

    In terms of how much mana you get from each stat: Int > Spirit > MP5 > Crit > SP > Haste
    In terms of how much throughput you get from each stat: SP > Haste > Crit > Spirit > Int > MP5



    With regard to your Haste soft-cap question, there isn't one for Holy except, I guess, for the GCD during Heroism one. It's really not something I would worry about unless you're stacking it to silly levels. There IS a Haste soft-cap for Discipline though, which is bound by Borrowed Time on PWS spam which, IIRC, is around 4.6-5% on gear.

    I would never gem Crit on gear because you'll always get better results from another gem. If you need throughput, Intellect is better and provides roughly 1/3 the Crit rating per point as well. If you need throughput, Haste is usually better IMO.
    Ok well, I heard people saying intellect is better than spirit at any times for a holy priest? Why do you disagree?

    With the soft cap, I meant the amount of haste that will take me to 1.0 global without cds.

    There's still some other questions aswell : ) (I'm very interested in the PI + 6% +xx =1.00 global quesiton answer)
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormscale&cn=Jeffx

  9. #9

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffx
    Ok well, I heard people saying intellect is better than spirit at any times for a holy priest? Why do you disagree?

    With the soft cap, I meant the amount of haste that will take me to 1.0 global without cds.

    There's still some other questions aswell : ) (I'm very interested in the PI + 6% +xx =1.00 global quesiton answer)
    The intellect > Spirit argument has been going on since 3.0 came out. And for awhile, that was true. Holy had the mana to be spamming forever, accidental OO5SR regen, and Replenishment was at 1.25% mana per 5.

    Replenishment was nerfed. A lot of encounters now don't allow you to get a Hymn of Hope off, and if they do, there's still a pretty big chance you won't be the one to get the mana.

    Plus, factoring in the new holy concentration, and phase changes (or "lulls" regardless of phase), altering your playstyle a little will help bring your mana higher with a Spirit/Intellect balance. If you continue spamming like an idiot, then Intellect is for you. (Although Spirit gives a tiny bit of thoroughput, wheras the crit portion of Intellect is kinda small and doesn't).

    The softcap for haste isn't really a softcap. It's a hugecap. It'd take 1640 rating to get there unbuffed. Of course, bringing buffs into the equation drop that down a nice touch, but really, not nearly enough to make it viable for something to gear for, unless we're talking Discipline using Borrowed Time. Even then, however, you want to go beyond that "softcap" as haste doesn't stop being beneficial unless you refuse to adapt your playstyle. There's a reason alot of people feel Discipline is gimped and bad, and that's a major contributor.

    Soft Cap for Discipline (with Enlightenment, Borrowed Time, Wrath of Air, and Swift Retribution) is 154 haste rating. But please, don't be an idiot and stopping there.
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  10. #10

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    There are no PP values for healing specs, just generalizations that vary depending on what you need.
    Unlike a rogue whose performance is tangible, healers will forever be arguing on how to gear. Given the variables on HC/SOL/OO5SR and the ridiculously complicated int-spirit model, a "weightage" would be a poor guesstimate at best. I have a strong haste/sp slant but dont take it from me.

    Ask Kelesti about holy and haste cap, stay away from Areohvee's advice.
    I'm not going to bother arguing with Areohvee. I mean do you really want to take advice from someone with a terribad attitude on his high horse trolling the relatively healthy priest forum?

    The Holy 1sec gcd "cap" is at 1269. Thats with WOA and either a boom/ret. Bloodlust/PI/trinkets not counted. This should not be a number most priests would not be concerned with given most cloth "healing" gear (if you were to look at the item names) actually has high spirit/crit. If you were to count in bloodlust then its at 11-13% or 500-600 (cant remember the exact number). This is the reason why EJ posts/quotes always put the "cap" at 500-600, but this is never explained/substantiated.

  11. #11

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    @Kelesti

    Please show any proof that haste beyond the BT Cap is good for disc. I see you argue for it all the time and say Disc Priests who refuse to go above it are bad. Any proof at all will do. I'm trying to get down to it asap as I can't find a single benifit from being over. It speeds up Pen slightly....that's it. If you're spaming PoH as a Disc to the point where you feel you need more haste then your raid healers are bad and you should replace them. It's also means you're bad at Disc and need to /l2p the class. Disc is made to stop damage first and heal damage after, not the other way around. That's the only other benifit I can find from going above 11%, and it's not a benifit. I'm not trying to be an ass and call you out but I never see you post any proof on the matter, just you're personal opinion. Evdiance to the contrary has been show and proven by high end raiders on this matter. I'll be happy to PM you links so you can read for yourself so the thread doesn't get filled up with an arguement.

    @OP

    Here are Disc stat weights, I will PM you a list for holy stat weights if you desire but I can't confirm they are 100% accurate. The math portion for holy weights is still unvarified, at least for the ones I use.

    Regen
    A. Base Regen
    As a traditionally "spirit based" mana regeneration class. The level 80 version of the mana regeneration from Int and Spi now follow the following formula's:

    oo5sr = 0.016725 * Spirit * SqRt(Intellect)
    i5sr = oo5sr * .17/.33/.50 (Based on the points in meditation. 3/3 Meditation is standard in all specs.)

    This portion of the mana regeneration model is the only reason for Discipline to utilize Spirit at all.

    B. Rapture
    Rapture had a major overhaul with the 3.1 release. It was quite imbalanced in its previous incarnation, though the current mechanic has some issues. Rapture provides 1.5/2.0/2.5% of total mana when a PW:S is completely consumed or dispelled and can only occur once per 12 seconds.

    The maximum regeneration from Rapture is:
    (Mana Pool) x Return% / 12 * 5 = X mp5

    The maximal return is unrealistic and should instead be evaluated based on the amount per proc and the proc rate received. Instead you find that:
    (Mana Pool) x Return% / 12 = X mp5 per proc, where the proc rate is from 0-5 proc’s/min.

    Example:
    21568 x 2.5% / 12 = 44.93 mp5/proc... The PTR proc rate data I was running was ~3.4 proc/min. So this would indicate ~152.8 mp5.

    There needs to be more data collected and theorycraft analysis on the proc rate. The proc rate depends on multitude of factors. For a single target the proc rate is maximally 4/min based on the WS debuff. How close to this can be achieved is based on damage income and pattern, target avoidance, target mitigation..etc calculating an average “time to consumption”… Optimally a time to consumption of less than 3 seconds yields 4 proc/min.

    1 Int = ~0.1538 mp5, maximally
    1 Int = ~0.1045 mp5, 3.4proc/min

    The mechanic behind Rapture indicates that PW:S should be used with regularity on any target that will benefit from being shielded and provides the potential or guarantee of the shield being completely consumed.

    C. Replenishment
    Replenishment is a talent available to a multitude of class/specs... The buff provides a 15 second buff on up to 10 people that restores 0.25% of total mana every second for the duration of the buff. Mental Strength couples well with Replenishment in a raid/group environment for Discipline.

    1199 Int provides 17705 mana. That 17705 mana at 0.25% is 44.2625 mana per second or ~221 mp5. Based on the 221 mp5 @ 1199 Int you find that -

    1 Int = ~0.18458 mp5 (not accounting Blessing of Kings or Mental Strength)

    D. Mana Pool
    The larger the mana pool the better the longevity over the course of the fight. This equates to mana regen based on the fight duration.

    Mana Pool / Duration * 5 = X mp5, working with a 5 min fight duration at the previously demonstrated Int amount it works out too.

    17705 / 300 * 5 = ~295.08 mp5

    1 Int = ~0.2461 mp5 (not accounting Blessing of Kings or Mental Strength)

    E. Spirit vs. mp5
    The more Int the more valuable Spi becomes, though without a secondary benefit of having Spi it is a fairly weak stat for Disc. It takes approximately 3 Spi to equal 1 mp5.

    Giving the opportunity Disc should choose quality mp5 gear over spirit.
    Actual Stat Weights:
    Thoughput stats...

    * Intelligence - 0.16
    * Spell Power - 1.0
    * Crit Rating - 0.48
    * Haste Rating - 0.59

    Longevity stats...

    * 1 Intelligence = 0.74 mp5
    * 1 Spirit - 0.33 mp5

    Combined stats... Using a 60/40 split for throughput vs. longevity.

    * Intelligence - 0.65
    * Spirit - 0.22
    * Haste Rating - 0.59
    * Crit Ratng - 0.48
    * Spell Power - 1.0
    * Mp5 - 0.67
    Origional post for the stat weights can be found HERE

  12. #12
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    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brokn Buttrfly
    @Kelesti

    Please show any proof that haste beyond the BT Cap is good for disc. I see you argue for it all the time and say Disc Priests who refuse to go above it are bad. Any proof at all will do. I'm trying to get down to it asap as I can't find a single benifit from being over. It speeds up Pen slightly....that's it. If you're spaming PoH as a Disc to the point where you feel you need more haste then your raid healers are bad and you should replace them. It's also means you're bad at Disc and need to /l2p the class. Disc is made to stop damage first and heal damage after, not the other way around. That's the only other benifit I can find from going above 11%, and it's not a benifit. I'm not trying to be an ass and call you out but I never see you post any proof on the matter, just you're personal opinion. Evdiance to the contrary has been show and proven by high end raiders on this matter. I'll be happy to PM you links so you can read for yourself so the thread doesn't get filled up with an arguement.
    Hi, maybe you only do heroics or something and don't have access to nice gear, but have you ever tried to make a healing set that DOESN'T have more than 300 haste? It's nearly impossible. I used 300 because just my chest and gloves hit your said "soft cap" of haste. that leaves 14 other slots of gear that I would have to find with 0 haste to "meet your standards".

    If you are spamming PW:S through a fight, you are useless. Some encounters like anub "encourage" this, however it's only useful once your healers have "leveled-out" the raid at low health so the shields last forever. Kologarn was a good shield-spam boss because everyone's shield broke at the same time always, returning massive amounts of mana from it.

    You forget that haste affects every spell, do you not? FHeal uses it, Penance, PoM, PoH, Renew (lol), everything.

    Haste isn't useless. A good haste "cap" is ~12-14%. The largest benefit from Borrowed Time is the increased absorption amount, not the haste bonus IMO.

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  13. #13
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    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffx
    Ok well, I heard people saying intellect is better than spirit at any times for a holy priest? Why do you disagree?
    This is a complicated question, and Kelesti covered much of it, but since it's one of my pet topics, I'll throw in a little more. Spirit provides regen only through the regen model and it's contribution to regen through that is linear; it also provides Spell Power. Intellect provides regen through spirit regen with a logarithmic contribution, receives regen through max mana regen mechanics (eg, replenishment, shadowfiend, manatide, etc.) at a constant rate, and receives effective regen mana regen (since we generally compare at MP5 rather than effective mana pool) through mana pool at a rate inversely proportional to the fight length; it also provides some Crit.

    What does this all mean? The non-Spirit regen component of Intellect is fairly large such that it generally trumps the regen offered by through the regen; however, because the part that does scale is logarithmic while Spirit's contribution is linear, it means that Spirit gets progressively better as you more and more.

    That said, even at high gear levels, Intellect still generally offers more pure regen, that doesn't mean it will provide the best results precisely because each stat contributes to the value of the other AND Spirit provides tangible throughput. Thus, in the end, because healers need both regen and throughput, the less efficient regen but superior throughput of Spirit combined with the added benefit of maintaining a balance between the stats means that, the value of Intellect and Spirit are roughly the same, with Intellect slightly better at lower gear levels and Spirit slightly better at higher gear levels.

    However, if you're a lower gear levels and desperate for mana, unless your Spirit is considerably lower than your Intellect, you will generally get better results from Intellect in achieving your regen goal; this is the situation where Intellect is flatly superior. However, if you have plenty of regen and are looking to up your throughput, neither Spirit nor Intellect provides much compared to pure Spell Power, but Spirit definitely provides more through the Spell Power conversion of Spiritual Guidance.

    With the soft cap, I meant the amount of haste that will take me to 1.0 global without cds.

    There's still some other questions aswell : ) (I'm very interested in the PI + 6% +xx =1.00 global quesiton answer)
    As Kelesti and Rubberbands indicated, there really is no meaningful cap for Haste for Holy Priests because the only way we can reach the GCD, without stacking Haste at the exclusion of every other stat, is with Power Infusion or Heroism/Blood Lust.


    For Discipline, there is an effective soft cap for Haste, as others indicated. All you have to do to figure out what it is is remember that the haste buffs stack multiplicatively, not additively. Thus, with 5/5 Borrowed Time up (25%) and assuming you have 3/3 Enlightenment (6%), a Moonkin or Re Pally (3%), and a Shaman (5%), you have ~43% Haste with zero Haste rating on gear; to get to the GCD cap which requires 50% Haste, you only need 4.68% Haste from gear, or 154 rating, to be able to achieve the GCD cap.


    @ Broken Buttrfly

    The reason it's still worth it to get Haste after the BT soft-cap is two-fold. First, you're not always going to have the BT buff up because you're not only casting PWS; there will be some Flash Heals in there, so it helps in those cases, albeit to a lesser extent. Second, what else are you going to get? Yes, you shouldn't socket Haste, because Spell Power is vastly superior for throughput, but when looking at gear, your only alternative is Spirit which is a poor regen stat and offers no throughput. In fact, it's all but unavoidable to go well past the BT soft-cap.

  14. #14

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    This is a complicated question, and Kelesti covered much of it, but since it's one of my pet topics, I'll throw in a little more. Spirit provides regen only through the regen model and it's contribution to regen through that is linear; it also provides Spell Power. Intellect provides regen through spirit regen with a logarithmic contribution, receives regen through max mana regen mechanics (eg, replenishment, shadowfiend, manatide, etc.) at a constant rate, and receives effective regen mana regen (since we generally compare at MP5 rather than effective mana pool) through mana pool at a rate inversely proportional to the fight length; it also provides some Crit.

    What does this all mean? The non-Spirit regen component of Intellect is fairly large such that it generally trumps the regen offered by through the regen; however, because the part that does scale is logarithmic while Spirit's contribution is linear, it means that Spirit gets progressively better as you more and more.

    That said, even at high gear levels, Intellect still generally offers more pure regen, that doesn't mean it will provide the best results precisely because each stat contributes to the value of the other AND Spirit provides tangible throughput. Thus, in the end, because healers need both regen and throughput, the less efficient regen but superior throughput of Spirit combined with the added benefit of maintaining a balance between the stats means that, the value of Intellect and Spirit are roughly the same, with Intellect slightly better at lower gear levels and Spirit slightly better at higher gear levels.

    However, if you're a lower gear levels and desperate for mana, unless your Spirit is considerably lower than your Intellect, you will generally get better results from Intellect in achieving your regen goal; this is the situation where Intellect is flatly superior. However, if you have plenty of regen and are looking to up your throughput, neither Spirit nor Intellect provides much compared to pure Spell Power, but Spirit definitely provides more through the Spell Power conversion of Spiritual Guidance.

    As Kelesti and Rubberbands indicated, there really is no meaningful cap for Haste for Holy Priests because the only way we can reach the GCD, without stacking Haste at the exclusion of every other stat, is with Power Infusion or Heroism/Blood Lust.


    [b]For Discipline, there is an effective soft cap for Haste, as others indicated. All you have to do to figure out what it is is remember that the haste buffs stack multiplicatively, not additively. Thus, with 5/5 Borrowed Time up (25%) and assuming you have 3/3 Enlightenment (6%), a Moonkin or Re Pally (3%), and a Shaman (5%), you have ~43% Haste with zero Haste rating on gear; to get to the GCD cap which requires 50% Haste, you only need 4.68% Haste from gear, or 154 rating, to be able to achieve the GCD cap.[b]

    Bold is basically what I asked for with that questions, but I want the PvP values, so no shaman/kin/ret

    Sorry, but thanks, an keep the thread going (please with answers on my OP, not arumentng with others )

    And remember people, most questions are about PvE, where I am HOLY.
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  15. #15
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    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffx
    Bold is basically what I asked for with that questions, but I want the PvP values, so no shaman/kin/ret

    Sorry, but thanks, an keep the thread going (please with answers on my OP, not arumentng with others )

    And remember people, most questions are about PvE, where I am HOLY.
    Sorry, wasn't clear about what you were asking. With just BT and Enlightenment and zero raid buffs, you need 13.2% Haste from gear, or ~433 Haste Rating, to get to an effective BT soft-cap. With BT, Enlightenment, and PI, you're already below the GCD so you won't need any Haste from gear.

  16. #16

    Re: A few questions, mostly regarding stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Brokn Buttrfly
    Please show any proof that haste beyond the BT Cap is good for disc.I see you argue for it all the time and say Disc Priests who refuse to go above it are bad. Any proof at all will do. I'm trying to get down to it asap as I can't find a single benifit from being over. It speeds up Pen slightly....that's it. If you're spaming PoH as a Disc to the point where you feel you need more haste then your raid healers are bad and you should replace them. It's also means you're bad at Disc and need to /l2p the class. Disc is made to stop damage first and heal damage after, not the other way around. That's the only other benifit I can find from going above 11%, and it's not a benifit. I'm not trying to be an ass and call you out but I never see you post any proof on the matter, just you're personal opinion. Evdiance to the contrary has been show and proven by high end raiders on this matter. I'll be happy to PM you links so you can read for yourself so the thread doesn't get filled up with an arguement.
    If you are wasting a global cooldown on a secondary target to gain a haste buff on your single target thoroughput, I can tell you right now "You're doing it wrong". Yes, it boosts prayer. But shielding a raid to Flash Heal a tank is not necessarily the best use of your resources. At the 25 man level, Discipline is the seamless support healer, flowing between both the raid and the tank, true. What do you do when the person with Mark of the Fallen Champion (and your tank) already has Weakened Soul? Sit there and look to shield a random third person for a hasted Flash Heal? Borrowed Time does not have a 100% uptime, otherwise it'd be passive like Enlightenment. Pushing your haste cap beyond one buff lets you keep it when it's not there. If you run with a Holy Priest who likes to abuse Body & Soul (like me) then there is crossover as well, so you don't get to shield as much as you'd like (and yes, sometimes a 5.4k shield with 60% speed boost is better than a 7.2k shield, get over yourself if you think otherwise).

    Haste lets your non-Borrowed Time flash heals go off faster, your Borrowed Time Flash Heals go off faster than your GCD (you might not be able to land them consecutively like that, but they still land faster), and at certain levels allows you to bring in Greater Heal between Penance cooldowns for single target thoroughput, or should I include faster BT-Prayers when they're needed? Don't tell me a Discipline Priest shouldn't be casting Prayers, you're not a Paladin.
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