MM < SV ?

[bullseyed]

dont know whats up with everyone thats disagreeing with this guy cuz he has a point. MM is very much a faceroll spec the rotation is more than easy and you have nothing that u have to be keeping trrack of cept for readiness and rapidifre which is practically like keeping track of trinkets. while with survival you want to make sure SS is always on for that 3% dmg and that you use lock and load properly plus black arrow.

survivals rotation is much less of a faceroll and sure MM suffers from moving cuz of their auto shots but survival suffers much more since their dps is reduced my 6% if they dont have sniper training on.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[bullseyed]

A guide to marksmanship.
-by thuglifelolz


I’ve seen hundreds of posts since the release of WOTLK and the change of explosive shot, is MM better then SV? The question usually can be answered by heading over to - http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t30710-w...s_spreadsheet/ , and downloading Cheeky’s EJ spreadsheet.

Cheeky mainly posted on TKAsomething.com and he quit maintaining the spreadsheet over a year and a half ago. Shandra has been maintaining the spreadsheet since then. I have a feeling this "thuglifelolz" kid has no idea what he is doing.

[bullseyed]

But i really would like to see what Bullseyed has to say about playing marks?

I really don't want to take the time to explain it all, and I like the fact that there are fewer hunters who has passed the learning curve into the upper tiers of MM. But I'll give a brief summary.

1.) Improved Steady Shot procs. (ISS)
You have a chance on steady shot to proc this buff, which is consumed by your next chimera or aimed shot. You need to edit your rotation dynamically to make sure if you proc it 2 times in one cooldown set that the buff is consumed and not overwritten.

2.) Trinkets (ok, this kind of applies to both but...)
Trinkets are important especially to MM because if you're soft on ArP you don't hit 100% until you have your trinket proc. The internal cooldowns (ICD) of Death's Choice and Mjolnir Runestone are close, but not the same. You can use a channel of volley to prevent the trinket from procing until they overlap. Additionally, you may want to save an ISS proc until the trinket proc if you're close.

3.) Autoshot
Autoshot is usually the biggest portion of MM's damage. It is important not to miss any. This means you need a GCD timer and an autoshot timer so that when you do move you stop in time to let the autoshot go and to make sure you use every GCD for an ability. Even arcane shot is used while on the run.

4.) Bleeds
The bleed MM applies is often the second largest component of MM's damage. This bleed is applied by aimed shot crits and chimera shot crits. You want to keep this bleed's uptime as high as possible, and it only lasts for about as long as the cooldown of each of those abilities. When there is more than one mob (like Twins) you probably are going to want to use multishot whenever you can. You need to watch the bleed debuff so you know when it is up and how much time is remaining so that you can choose between aimed (to proc the bleed if needed) or multishot (to potentially do more damage).



There are lots of dynamic things that can be done as MM and they are done by the top hunters in the world. I don't really care to inform the 'lolshotmacro' people about how to do them, because I'd rather they remain secrets for the few who can figure them out.

[Muffinator]

People just hate it when there preferred spec is talked down on, they engage defensive mode automatically.
I have the gear for both specs, and i have both specs and i switch to whatever spec i think is better for that fight.

But i really would like to see what Bullseyed has to say about playing marks?

I mean, take your typicall raid boss, u apply the sting, and start your rotation of chimera>aimed and then steadyx4 (or 3 if you have to move out of something while your instants were on cooldown, you have high ping or low haste)).
With the experience comes better positioning, most of the good hunters already know by now were they can stand in ICC to get the most standstill dps time and thus beeing able to get as much autoshots off and 3/4 steadies in between each chimera.

You use your cooldowns on the right time, so no rf/readiness when there are just 1/2secs on your instants remaining but you wait them out and use them when there are just shot so you can have a chimera>aimed>(rf/ready)>chimera>aimed sequence

Ow, and use a decent castbar addon that tracks your autoshot timer so you don't move when it wants to shoot and you do move when it can't shoot due to beeing on "cooldown".

Now, that is how hard playing MM is.

For SV, start your pewpew, apply your sting somewere between BA and Aimed(or multi if you are one of those SV hunters), get of your steadies when you can but you holdoff your steady when your instant has only 1sec on the gcd left because you always want to have your instants done the moment they come off the GCD and keeping the priorities correct (which is true for MM also).

When lnl procs you fire your exp's back to back but you keep in mind the .5sec gap you have to overcome, because you don't want to clip your last charge, firing an instant in between is a bad idea.
Most hunters use a timer addon to keep track of this, good example is the quartz castbar macro.
Some just do it by instinct (and are sometimes mistaken).

Keep your SS up as good as possible for the 3% dmg boost and reapply BA when it comes of CD.
Rapid fire is used @ the approriate time, no need to manage your readiness because you dont have it.

Now, i can see this is rocketsience...

Face it, we are not to complicated to play when you got half a brain and MM and SV are very close in dps (about 3/400dps apart in favor of MM in theoretical dps output).

So before you go on calling your spec the harder spec (and everyone feels their spec is the harder one because noone wants to admit they play it easy) use that grey stuff between your ears and think about what you are about to say.
Hunters have no hard spec to play.

The only thing that gets so many scrub hunters out there (the ones that cant break 5/5.5k dps on Koralon (which basically is a hunters wet dream to dps, little to no movement so just go all out on yor rotation and hope your raid can keep up so the kill don't take to long) with full 232+ gear for example (aka TotC10/ToTC25/ICC5loot)) is because they suck at gemming/speccing and knowing the basiscs of their class and when to do what.

And back to topic, MM is the higher dps output spec atm, but differences are small so just find out what you like to play more and play that.
Hell, there are people that play BM good and get some nice dmg out of that.

Sorry, you're bad

When LnL procs, that gap between explosives should be filled with a steady, an aimed, a sting, black arrow, whatever, the point is it's the perfect amount of time to fit one in.

If you DON'T, and you listen to ^ this guy, and just wait until explo is done, explo, then explo, you are losing 3 seconds of dps by doing nothing.

[Muffinator]

I really don't want to take the time to explain it all, and I like the fact that there are fewer hunters who has passed the learning curve into the upper tiers of MM. But I'll give a brief summary.

1.) Improved Steady Shot procs. (ISS)
You have a chance on steady shot to proc this buff, which is consumed by your next chimera or aimed shot. You need to edit your rotation dynamically to make sure if you proc it 2 times in one cooldown set that the buff is consumed and not overwritten.

2.) Trinkets (ok, this kind of applies to both but...)
Trinkets are important especially to MM because if you're soft on ArP you don't hit 100% until you have your trinket proc. The internal cooldowns (ICD) of Death's Choice and Mjolnir Runestone are close, but not the same. You can use a channel of volley to prevent the trinket from procing until they overlap. Additionally, you may want to save an ISS proc until the trinket proc if you're close.

3.) Autoshot
Autoshot is usually the biggest portion of MM's damage. It is important not to miss any. This means you need a GCD timer and an autoshot timer so that when you do move you stop in time to let the autoshot go and to make sure you use every GCD for an ability. Even arcane shot is used while on the run.

4.) Bleeds
The bleed MM applies is often the second largest component of MM's damage. This bleed is applied by aimed shot crits and chimera shot crits. You want to keep this bleed's uptime as high as possible, and it only lasts for about as long as the cooldown of each of those abilities. When there is more than one mob (like Twins) you probably are going to want to use multishot whenever you can. You need to watch the bleed debuff so you know when it is up and how much time is remaining so that you can choose between aimed (to proc the bleed if needed) or multishot (to potentially do more damage).



There are lots of dynamic things that can be done as MM and they are done by the top hunters in the world. I don't really care to inform the 'lolshotmacro' people about how to do them, because I'd rather they remain secrets for the few who can figure them out.

works on steady shot too.

[Fahtrim]

I've been thinking about switching to MM for sometime, and i've just recently started using femaledwarf.com. According to that site MM is about a 400 dps loss for me to switch from SV to MM. From what i've read MM was supposed to over take SV at a decent gear lvl. Do i need more arp to make mm turn our more dps or is there something wrong with the spreadsheet with factoring in gear?


my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ras&n=Balewolf

I get 9022 for survival and 9164 for Marksman for you. I think you're doing it wrong.

glyphs to use are serpent, steady, and aimed and prioritize aimed over chimera


The 7/57/7 build linked above is what I used.

You can improve quite a bit as follows.

Badge shoulders over t9 shoulders. In your Yellow slots use +10 agi +10 gems to activate the bonus instead of _20 agi, it's more dps.

you are 30 over the hit cap, not sure what other gear you have but the crafted belt from Ulduar is a large improvement over that badge belt. You can move one point from imp HM to our hit talent and free up hit gear a lot. The crafted chest crusader's dragonscale breastplate is also a huge dps improvement over the t9 chest that you have. But to answer your original question, MM is higher dps than SV on the site if you use the site right.

[bullseyed]

works on steady shot too.

Well yeah but it is easier on aimed because of the improved crit rate.

[Fahtrim]

Sorry, you're bad

When LnL procs, that gap between explosives should be filled with a steady, an aimed, a sting, black arrow, whatever, the point is it's the perfect amount of time to fit one in.

If you DON'T, and you listen to ^ this guy, and just wait until explo is done, explo, then explo, you are losing 3 seconds of dps by doing nothing.

You called someone bad, then gave them advice that isn't max dps, lol. It has been proven over and over that you wait 1/2 second between explosive shots on a LnL proc for maximum dps.

You don't have to and you are better off interweaving a SS Aimed etc than spamming it but still funny.

[Muffinator]

You called someone bad, then gave them advice that isn't max dps, lol. It has been proven over and over that you wait 1/2 second between explosive shots on a LnL proc for maximum dps.

You don't have to and you are better off interweaving a SS Aimed etc than spamming it but still funny.

? I really can't understand your english here.

When you use an LnL explosive shot, between that shot and the next lnl eplo shot you have exactly 1.5s, literally, even considering flight time, until the debuff falls of the boss and you can recast it. Therefore, use that 1.5s and use an instant.

[Infs]

? I really can't understand your english here.

When you use an LnL explosive shot, between that shot and the next lnl eplo shot you have exactly 1.5s, literally, even considering flight time, until the debuff falls of the boss and you can recast it. Therefore, use that 1.5s and use an instant.

Yea, of which 1 second is GCD, so the actual wait time is 0.5 sec which makes it worth waiting instead of firing an instant.

[Muffinator]

Yea, of which 1 second is GCD, so the actual wait time is 0.5 sec which makes it worth waiting instead of firing an instant.

It definitely doesn't, we don't get a 1s GCD,

[Infs]

It definitely doesn't, we don't get a 1s GCD,

Your right I mistyped. If I'm correct your point is that you have a 1.5 sec wait time in which you can cast a instant or a steady shot. This is wrong, explosive shot lasts 2 sec, so in order to not clip your last tick you would have to wait 2 sec after firing your next explosive shot, but the gcd is 1.5 sec there so the actual wait time is 0.5 sec, making it worth the wait. If you fire an instant or a steady you basically delay your next explosive shot by a second. You dont want to do that.

[Muffinator]

Your right I mistyped. If I'm correct your point is that you have a 1.5 sec wait time in which you can cast a instant or a steady shot. This is wrong, explosive shot lasts 2 sec, so in order to not clip your last tick you would have to wait 2 sec after firing your next explosive shot, but the gcd is 1.5 sec there so the actual wait time is 0.5 sec, making it worth the wait. If you fire an instant or a steady you basically delay your next explosive shot by a second. You dont want to do that.

You're forgetting flight time. And instant in between explosive shots wouldn't clip the last tick because it takes about 0.5s for the shot and the subsequent explosive shot to reach the target. If I had fraps I'd show you, but it works.

[Fahtrim]

You're forgetting flight time. And instant in between explosive shots wouldn't clip the last tick because it takes about 0.5s for the shot and the subsequent explosive shot to reach the target. If I had fraps I'd show you, but it works.

Flight time is the visual, but the damage is applied before the shot gets there. I can prove this via fraps also.

Graphics/visual means nothing.

[Damien36]

You're forgetting flight time. And instant in between explosive shots wouldn't clip the last tick because it takes about 0.5s for the shot and the subsequent explosive shot to reach the target. If I had fraps I'd show you, but it works.

The correct application of Explosive Shot is ES->wait .5 sec->ES->wait .5 secs->ES. That is the MAX damage you can do with the LnL proc. By weaving in another shot between ES you are delaying the ES at that moment and all future ES shots down the line. You may rock the dps meters using your method, but you'd rock them even more if you fired in the correct order.

[Gotjuice]

Survival is easier to play, but I found the dps remains about the same. ArP scales much better for MM. Even with blues and ilevel 200 epics I was doing 4k+ with my hunter in MM. So Suvival if you want to faceroll to easy dps, MM if you can pay attention and play right.

How is surviva "faceroll easy dps" you keep the sting up, u do black arrow on every cd and you watch out for LnL. As MM you don't keep the sting up since chimera does that for u. You just do your shots on every cd. Seems like they are both pretty straight forward rotations for me.

[Balewulf]

Just wanted to get this post back into the conversation. I see 90% of hunters say MM is better dps, but as the spreadsheet and several in game test on my part i can never get MM to do more dps than my Surv spec. I don't believe that MM is a clear cut winner from the testing i've done. Anyone else getting better results out of Surv?