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  1. #41

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina
    Life would be all roses and peaches if not for that
    Sure Garrosh is hot-headed, and the Horde were betrayed by a few of their own, but what business was it of Varian to attack Thrall for this?

    Both sides suffered loses from the betrayal but Varian is so blind with rage he only thinks of his precious Bolvar...

  2. #42

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    lulwut?

    Orcs started the first war by leaving their homeworld and invading Azeroth.

    Thats what the whole game is based upon :
    A human opened the portal, possessed or not it was a human.

  3. #43

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    what business was it of Varian to attack Thrall for this?
    Really?!

    With the information he had that is exactly how our King should have reacted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    A human opened the portal, possessed or not it was a human.
    Did that Human hold your hand walking through the portal or did you do that on your own?

    Or for that matter do the Orc's ever do anything on there own or are they always just " not in control " :-\


  4. #44

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    and this gave orcs the right to start slaughtering humans, possessed or not?

    dimwit.
    Orcs would never have arrived on Azeroth if that human never opened the portal...as for the insult, I see your dimwit and raise you a moron.

  5. #45
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    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    Sure Garrosh is hot-headed, and the Horde were betrayed by a few of their own, but what business was it of Varian to attack Thrall for this?

    Both sides suffered loses from the betrayal but Varian is so blind with rage he only thinks of his precious Bolvar...
    Horde players love to refuse to see things from a real perspective.. All Varian knew was that the Forsaken had just killed Bolvar. You wouldn't be angry? If there's a building full of your family and your neighbors and it explodes do you not think of your own family first?

    And let's not kid ourselves here.. the Forsaken are absolutely evil. To believe that the countless aggressive action against the alliance by the forsaken somehow went unnoticed by Sylvanas or Thrall is plain idiotic. Ya know, I would have attacked Thrall too regardless of what his intentions were in UC. He's the leader of the Horde and wants peace yet he doesn't keep an obviously devious ally in check?

    +1 point for my Orcs are stupid argument.

  6. #46

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elementium
    Horde players love to refuse to see things from a real perspective.. All Varian knew was that the Forsaken had just killed Bolvar. You wouldn't be angry? If there's a building full of your family and your neighbors and it explodes do you not think of your own family first?

    And let's not kid ourselves here.. the Forsaken are absolutely evil. To believe that the countless aggressive action against the alliance by the forsaken somehow went unnoticed by Sylvanas or Thrall is plain idiotic. Ya know, I would have attacked Thrall too regardless of what his intentions were in UC. He's the leader of the Horde and wants peace yet he doesn't keep an obviously devious ally in check?

    +1 point for my Orcs are stupid argument.
    When was it stated that Thrall or Sylvanas were Apothecaries? You wouldn't perform brain surgery (unless you are actually a brain surgeon), you would get someone qualified to do it. Varian's would have known the Horde suffered defeats since it was a combined effort.

  7. #47

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    "Where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?" The Aliance are racists pricks maby?
    When people say "pls" just because its shorter then "please", I feel totally justified to say "No" just because its shorter then "Yes".

  8. #48

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    and this gave the orcs the right to start attacking humans?

    i call you dimwit again, no need to raise you anything, since you never addressed the original point.

    Portal or no portal, orcs started the first attacks. Heck if i opened my front door to you and you started attacking me, i sure as hell would blow your head off before you had a chance to kill me

    /end
    So your saying that Medivh opening the portal to a race of violent orcs had nothing to do with said orcs murdering people on his side of the portal. Medivh opened it knowing there was an army waiting on the other side.

  9. #49

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    When was it stated that Thrall or Sylvanas were Apothecaries? You wouldn't perform brain surgery (unless you are actually a brain surgeon), you would get someone qualified to do it. Varian's would have known the Horde suffered defeats since it was a combined effort.
    No one ever said Thrall or Sylvanas were Apothecaries. You know what the interesting thing about leadership is? If your underlings screw up, it's your fault. No ifs. No ands. No buts. Putress and Varimathras betrayed Sylvanas. It is her fault for choosing such fickle lieutenants. Sylvanas' failure therefore becomes attached to Thrall.

    Say what you will about the entire battle for Undercity event, but it's not the Wrathgate that sparked Varian to attack Thrall. It was what he saw in the Undercity. He saw a place of torture and twisted science. He saw a place of downright evil, sitting right under Thralls nose. At that point, it doesn't matter if Thrall knew about it or not. He is justified in his attack.

  10. #50

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    Violence is what started the war between humans and orcs.

    Orcs were the violent attackers, humans were the ones defending their homes.

    Circumstances leading to the first attackers is no excuse for making the first attack.
    Lets go back to your door argument, Say you look through the keyhole and you see a man with a basball bat but you still open the door and get your head beat in. Who's fault is it that you got your face smashed in?

    I would put the blame with you, seeing as you knew he had a bat and you still insisted on opening the door

    Say what you will about the entire battle for Undercity event, but it's not the Wrathgate that sparked Varian to attack Thrall. It was what he saw in the Undercity. He saw a place of torture and twisted science. He saw a place of downright evil, sitting right under Thralls nose. At that point, it doesn't matter if Thrall knew about it or not. He is justified in his attack.
    Varian sent Jaina to Orgrimmar so Thrall could explain himself, he knew that Varimathras and Putress betrayed the Horde and that Undercity was lost, but he insisted on going to Undercity as a means to reclaim it for the Alliance.

  11. #51

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    The person holding the baseball bat looking for a fight is the one to blame for starting a fight.

    You just sound like your twisted in your thinking in all honesty.
    He is looking for a fight, but you allowed him into your house to fight. You didn't have to open the door for him, but you did so it would be your fault.

  12. #52

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by SurePlay
    No. The person looking to start a fight is the person to blame for starting the fight.

    I open the door, you start the fight.

    I am responsible for opening the door, you are responsible for starting the fight.

    Wana continue argueing, or do you just wana admit defeat on this obvious argument?
    You knew he was looking for the fight, but you still open the door. He wouldn't have been able to get to you if you never opened the door, resulting in you being unharmed and him being left on the otherside of the door.

  13. #53

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    Lets go back to your door argument, Say you look through the keyhole and you see a man with a basball bat but you still open the door and get your head beat in. Who's fault is it that you got your face smashed in?

    I would put the blame with you, seeing as you knew he had a bat and you still insisted on opening the door
    I bet the courts would agree with you on that one too :

    Judge " How would the defendent like to plea "

    Accused " Not guilty the guy opened his door "

    Judge " Oh shit really?! nm... case adjourned, open your door at your own risks lolz "



  14. #54

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina
    I bet the courts would agree with you on that one too :

    Judge " How would the defendent like to plea "

    Accused " Not guilty the guy opened his door "

    Judge " Oh shit really?! nm... case adjourned, open your door at your own risks lolz "


    Good thing there is no court for society, just individuals

  15. #55

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomina
    I bet the courts would agree with you on that one too :
    Exactly what I was going to say. If you attack someone, you're always at fault unless you're defending yourself from imminent danger. Someone opening a door that you're standing outside of with a bat doesn't pose imminent danger to you.........just an opportunity.

  16. #56
    Warchief Tokru's Avatar
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    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    He is looking for a fight, but you allowed him into your house to fight. You didn't have to open the door for him, but you did so it would be your fault.

    try arguing in that way in front of a judge. he will laugh at you.

  17. #57

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elektrik
    Exactly what I was going to say. If you attack someone, you're always at fault unless you're defending yourself from imminent danger. Someone opening a door that you're standing outside of with a bat doesn't pose imminent danger to you.........just an opportunity.
    Orcs had no idea what was on the other side of the "door" they just wanted power, however Medivh did but he still opened the door. The fight never would have happened if the opportunity wasn't presented. Orcs would have been none the wiser to humans existence.

    Trying to use an individual vs individual case against a mass army scale will never work.

    EDIT: I will be off to watch Cowboys vs Saints soon so I won't be on much longer

  18. #58

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultramonkey
    Orcs had no idea what was on the other side of the "door" they just wanted power, however Medivh did but he still opened the door. The fight never would have happened if the opportunity wasn't presented. Orcs would have been none the wiser to humans existence.

    Trying to use an individual vs individual case against a mass army scale will never work.
    Except for they did know humans were over there. Gul'dan saw it in a vision or sumsuch. The entire point of them moving to a new world was to destroy whatever race occupied the planet and take it over.

  19. #59

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivion
    Except for they did know humans were over there. Gul'dan saw it in a vision or sumsuch. The entire point of them moving to a new world was to destroy whatever race occupied the planet and take it over.
    Sure Gul'dan knew, but he was working for the Legion, we have really gone way off topic. There is evil on both sides but not so much in current time WoW.

    Orcs have changed their ways and no longer have the bloodthirst they had during the first and second wars.

    EDIT: why would i need to open the door if I had the ability to create my own produce? Not like the humans wanted to go to Draenor for some pie or something

  20. #60

    Re: where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

    It came from the "cool" kids who rolled horde, but then realised they were the bad guys, so instead did some spin doctering and made out the alliance were bad.

    Blizzard saw many people re-rolling horde and in order to keep them happy, changed the lore so that the orcs didnt really invade azeroth, it was the burning legion mind controlling them.

    Originally it was humans versus orcs, where orcs were the invaders, all lore and story kinda got added and changed from that point forward.

    Basically there is no good and bad anymore, its all got twisted, its just humanoids, versus burning legion, whatever side you choose you will fight for your cause and be at war with the other factions.
    dont make claims you cant back up. in the wc2 handbook there are pictures of kil'jaeden and he is mentioned as the mind behind gul'dan. just prior to the end of the 2nd war, gul'dan betrayed the horde by taking his forces ( stormreaver clan ) and those of cho'gall, his apprentice ( twillights hammer clan ) to venture to the tomb of sargeras to claim it´s powers, as it was promised to him by kil'jaeden ( and the reason gul'dan became kil'jaedens puppet ) he got however killed by one of the demons he set free, and his betrayal led to the defeat of the horde forces by he hand of the alliance forces, who where able to gather enough troups to retaliate.

    blizzards often changes lore the way they want, but the burning legions involvement in the first and second war was known since wc2 ( at least ).

    both sides have reasons to hate each other. both sides have their grudges. neither are purely good, neither are purely evil. the alliance has their ideals of loyality and honor just as the horde has.

    as tirion fordring ( the vanilla version at the border between eastern and western plaquelands ) fittingly says:

    i have seen orcs as honorable as the most faíthful knight and humans as treacherous as the most evil members of the scourge. your race does not dictate who or how you are

    well something along those lines, couldn´t find a screeny of the text.


    oh, and another thing: this tirion fordring, the most humande being in the history of warcraft ( at elast in my opinion ) got exiled by some of the "seemingly" most honorable members of the alliance at that point of time.

    as he rescued eitrigg, and orc veteran and survivor of the 2nd war from execution, he was stripped from his title as gouvernor of hearthglen and knight of the silver hand by

    alonsus faol ( archbishop of stormwind and founder of the order of the silver hand )
    antonidas ( arch mage and leader of the kirin thor )
    arthas menithil ( yeah, we now he´s the anakin skywalker of wow, but he was good at some point )
    daelin proudmoore ( grand admiral of the fleats of the alliance and leader of the nation kul'thiras )

    those "oh-so-good" people hadn´t much understanding for a man who was always been just throughout his life, a good ruler and a hero of the 2nd war, just because the living being he recognized as a honorful being being an orc.

    thrall, jaina, eitrigg, tirion fordring, prophet velen and lesser known characters, there are those who are truly good and indiscriminate of race.

    alliance itself isn´t evil, but having people like jaina or tirion on lower seats and people like variann as kings is just pure ourright stupidity.

    in the end we know variann and garrosh wont make as much of a couple as jaina and thrall did, and that´s the reason people hate both variann and garrosh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

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