Fury Warriors and Shadowmourne

[DarkenedDaern]

Rets actually benefits most from this weapon. Rets have more haste which will trigger the proc more often, more weapon attacks, which also triggers the proc more often. They don't get as much str from it as a fury warrior but they gain more than 60% of the str as Spell Power. They also scale best with weapon damage and speed. They dont get as much benefit fromt he Arp, that's true, but it is not a useless stat either.
People saying that you are stupid if you give it to a ret are probably warriors or blood dks who will never get it.

Warriors have Flurry (Increases attack speed by 25% for your next 3 swings after dealing a melee critical strike), which has a very high uptime. Warriors also scale directly with weapon damage, as all of their attacks are physical, and benefit greatly from both high weapon damage and speed.

EDIT: But give it to the person, who deserves it the most - it is BiS for all 3 classes, after all

[Deleted]

well in theory arp isnt that good for a paladin.
but then again a warrior's dps consists of two weapons. if one of them gets more powerful, its not the same as if you give a paladin a stronger weapon.

so in the end, both of them dont are optimal choices from a maximize-dps point of view, but its still the very best weapon for both of them.

if the warrior should get it, he should respec to weapons for maximum dps.
and IF he respecs, he should get it, from a dps point of view.
if he does not want to change his spec, just let them roll or whatever xD
(if you ignore attendance etc and such)

[/flex]

well in theory arp isnt that good for a paladin.

with the 2 piece t10 bonus arp will be much better for paladins than it ever has been

[Sinister Knight]

Yes that's why i can't even understand why your guild want to give it to a pally, it's the worst thing you could do besides giving it to a hunter(if it would've been possible).

I'm one of the candidates for first Shadowmourne in my guild, and I play a Ret Paladin.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49623

Strength is our primary stat for increasing dps. This weapon has loads of it. In addition the proc grants even more Strength.
We also benefit a good deal from Crit.
We benefit from ArP (about 35-40% as I recall offhand), but not as much as a Fury Warrior or Blood DK (around 80% or so for Fury and Blood, again as I recall). Probably as much as an Unholy DK if not a bit more. So 114 ArP, if you really want to break it down, is not going to add that much more dps to a Fury/Blood compared to a Ret or Unholy. The dps difference is going to be really minimal. Especially as stated when our Divine Storm will move up in priority and frequency. Ballpark figure, maybe 50 damage per swing, just from the ArP. Gamebreaking gap between Fury and Ret? Hardly.

Some points of note re: Strength and AP and such:
Yes Fury Warriors gain 20% Str. Paladins gain 15% total Str. Now I don't know if that's just a wording difference and the effect remains the same or what. We'll assume it does.

So if a Fury has 1000 Str, he'd gain 200, or 400 ap (roughly).
A Ret would gain 150, or 300 ap (again roughly).

What you need to remember is that the Ret also gains SP out of AP from Sheath of Light, so that Str provides a good chunk more SP as well (and thus more damage), which I think makes up for the 5% less Str via Talent.
In addition, Titan's Grip reduces physical damage done by 10%. For what that's worth in the grand comparison scheme of things.

So, all that considered, I would say both Fury and Ret are equally worthy of this weapon. As well as DKs of any type and Arms Warriors. If you do strong dps and your guild thinks you're worth giving it to, then you will do well with it.

[Admuntour]

Thank you for the posts gentlemen. Yes I am very eager to give the weapon to whoever is more deserving of it, be it a paladin, warrior or DK. However as I said, my fellow officer does not agree, he feels fury warriors scale inferiorly cause of titan's grip and thus they shouldn't get it or should be last to get it. I am appalled by his stance against fury warriors.

Thats why I am asking for some mathematical help, its the only way to prove him wrong since he rejects Rawr outright.

I was hopping for some help from Battousai, since I've seen he is good with math.

[lolwuttt]

I don't see why a fury warrior shouldn't get it. I'm arms (so a little different perspective there) and the only reason my guild's rets are out of contention is mainly because they're really new.

The class thing is really too close to call. You need to base it on everything else - personal character, loyalty eg attendance, and performance.

[Alendar]

Thank you for the posts gentlemen. Yes I am very eager to give the weapon to whoever is more deserving of it, be it a paladin, warrior or DK. However as I said, my fellow officer does not agree, he feels fury warriors scale inferiorly cause of titan's grip and thus they shouldn't get it or should be last to get it. I am appalled by his stance against fury warriors.

Thats why I am asking for some mathematical help, its the only way to prove him wrong since he rejects Rawr outright.

I was hopping for some help from Battousai, since I've seen he is good with math.

I've been playing around with Rawr for a bit and that resulted in a list of how much DPS Shadowmourne provides for the different specs. Now I'm sure I made mistakes, but this is what my Rawr told me (this is purely numbers based):

Arms Warrior (1089,49 DPS)
Ret Pally (875,89 DPS)
Fury Warrior (849,08 DPS)
Unholy DK (834,05 DPS)
Blood DK (613,40) (Pretty sure this one is veeery wrong, since Blood scales awesomely with ArP)

So, for your fellow officer: Purely looking at numbers, an Arms Warrior deserves it most. Ret Pallies come in second, and Fury Warriors come in third. DK's are next in line. Tell your officer that, and then tell him to stop being biased and just hand it to whoever deserves it most. Hand it to whoever is your best player in terms of loyalty, skill, attendance, performance, attitude, et cetera.



Off-topic again: Please guys, stop saying Armour Penetration sucks for Ret Pallies. It's been said before that 2T10 will make ArP a better stat for us than Haste. Besides, us Ret Pallies don't start bitching at you when you take gear with Haste on it. There.

[Aillena]

Arms Warrior - Actually with Shadowmourne Arms wouldn't need to gem any Armor pen and maybe than they could top more meters.

Death knight - No idea about Dks

Fury warrior or Ret paladin Both have many weapons they can use before they get the BiS weapon.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50415
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49919
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51905
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51833
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51936

So Fury warriors and ret pallys both have alot of weapons tehy can be using instead of QQing about Shadowmourne since it's the highest armor pen weapon in the game.

[ryyu]

This has as much right in the hands of a ret than anyone, If they took the arp off it and replaced it with Sprirt it would sill be BiS for everything by a mile.

Give it to the better player.

[Ventez]

What I would do if they are both equally active tell them to do something that proves that they really deserve it. Like the one with the most attendence over one month or the guy that helps out finding out tactics. I don't think you should give it to the warrior if they got the same attendence and skills just because it scales better. The least you could do is just make them do a roll and the one that rolls highest gets the first.

[Shelly]

OK, so here's the math you wanted.

Shadowmourne has a 3.7-speed, procs on next swing so I'm going to assume only upon white weapon attacks will the proc work. Just seems reasonable for a proc that strong.

Fury Warrior: 3.7-speed x 25% haste (from Flurry) equals 2.775s swing time x 20% haste (windfury or improved icy talons) = 2.22 swing speed.

Ret paladin: 3.7-speed x 20% haste (from windfury or improved icy talons) = 2.96s swing time, from there a paladin will need at least 630 haste rating to achieve 25% haste and an equal swing timer.

So unless the paladin has that much haste on them the warrior is swinging more often and gaining more soul power.

The heroic ret-paladin battlegear itself only comes with 212 haste rating, leaving 418 haste rating to be made up from trinkets, rings and off-set gear.

So there's your answer as far as the proc is concerned. Warriors are better served by it until a paladin can exceed a haste rating of 630.

As far as normal weapon damage goes they are about equal, although a warrior does 120% weapon damage with improved WW over a paladin who just gets 110% weapon damage with divine storm. I'm not sure how I'd rate bloodthirst against crusader's strike, although I'd definitely put heroic strike way ahead of normal weapon attacks.

Hope that helps your argument. But really, it should go to the guy who has done the most for your guild and won't take off after he gets it feeling like he's beat the game.

[6ev4enko]

Shadowmourne is a dk/warrior wep. i will cry if i see a fuckin pally with it. gooooood...

<.< Why shouldnt be a pally wep? Yea I'm a ret pally. So ... the wep gives ArP, so what ? The proc is damn 40 str per stack... doesnt ret pallies benefit more than warrs and DKs from str ?

[Propanelawls]

OK, so here's the math you wanted.

Shadowmourne has a 3.7-speed, procs on next swing so I'm going to assume only upon white weapon attacks will the proc work. Just seems reasonable for a proc that strong.

Fury Warrior: 3.7-speed x 25% haste (from Flurry) equals 2.775s swing time x 20% haste (windfury or improved icy talons) = 2.22 swing speed.

Ret paladin: 3.7-speed x 20% haste (from windfury or improved icy talons) = 2.96s swing time, from there a paladin will need at least 630 haste rating to achieve 25% haste and an equal swing timer.

So unless the paladin has that much haste on them the warrior is swinging more often and gaining more soul power.

The heroic ret-paladin battlegear itself only comes with 212 haste rating, leaving 418 haste rating to be made up from trinkets, rings and off-set gear.

So there's your answer as far as the proc is concerned. Warriors are better served by it until a paladin can exceed a haste rating of 630.

As far as normal weapon damage goes they are about equal, although a warrior does 120% weapon damage with improved WW over a paladin who just gets 110% weapon damage with divine storm. I'm not sure how I'd rate bloodthirst against crusader's strike, although I'd definitely put heroic strike way ahead of normal weapon attacks.

Hope that helps your argument. But really, it should go to the guy who has done the most for your guild and won't take off after he gets it feeling like he's beat the game.

You forgot the ArP and the strait AP bonuses str gives each class, but in the end it still goes to the warrior IF they have the attendance.

[Shelly]

You forgot the ArP and the strait AP bonuses str gives each class, but in the end it still goes to the warrior IF they have the attendance.

I'd just say I didn't want to get that involved, but yeah, completely forgot it (and didn't want to try and work it in) and I figure the AP strength bonus really comes out to a wash across all the classes. Also I wanted to concentrate just on the proc.

[Bullocks]

It should always go to the girl who flirts with the guild leader more.

[Aelith]

those who are saying ''dont give to a pally are ignorant'' attendance and loyalty should be considered first elseway if not considering that at all it should go like this

paladin (CS,DS,melee,5 stacks of seal) based on weapon damage (and shadowmourne has highest weapon damage in game)
death knight they have their spam attak based on weapon damage (aka HS,SS,FS) and melee ofc
Warrior only have melee and only scale with strenght wich can be obtainable through everything else so out of point of view on who would benefit most paladin would win hands down

[Shelly]

those who are saying ''dont give to a pally are ignorant'' attendance and loyalty should be considered first elseway if not considering that at all it should go like this

paladin (CS,DS,melee,5 stacks of seal) based on weapon damage (and shadowmourne has highest weapon damage in game)
death knight they have their spam attak based on weapon damage (aka HS,SS,FS) and melee ofc
Warrior only have melee and only scale with strenght wich can be obtainable through everything else so out of point of view on who would benefit most paladin would win hands down

High, my name is http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=23881, have we met?

Not to mention that AP is a component of all melee damaging abilities.

[DarkenedDaern]

those who are saying ''dont give to a pally are ignorant'' attendance and loyalty should be considered first elseway if not considering that at all it should go like this

paladin (CS,DS,melee,5 stacks of seal) based on weapon damage (and shadowmourne has highest weapon damage in game)
death knight they have their spam attak based on weapon damage (aka HS,SS,FS) and melee ofc
Warrior only have melee and only scale with strenght wich can be obtainable through everything else so out of point of view on who would benefit most paladin would win hands down

So, you're saying that because warriors only have melee and only scale with strength, which they can get from everything else... Wait, what? So, they don't scale with ArP or Crit? Crit gives them more Rage, more Rage results in more special attacks -> more dps and they benefit more from ArP than Retridins, as all of their damage is physical and not partly spell damage... And this counts for all classes: The more the better (except overcapping, of course )

[6ev4enko]

So, you're saying that because warriors only have melee and only scale with strength, which they can get from everything else... Wait, what? So, they don't scale with ArP or Crit? Crit gives them more Rage, more Rage results in more special attacks -> more dps and they benefit more from ArP than Retridins, as all of their damage is physical and not partly spell damage... And this counts for all classes: The more the better (except overcapping, of course )

Hi my name is Spell Damage. Have we met before? I ignore armor and I dont need 100% arp to do a lot damage.

[fabian]

those who are saying ''dont give to a pally are ignorant'' attendance and loyalty should be considered first elseway if not considering that at all it should go like this

paladin (CS,DS,melee,5 stacks of seal) based on weapon damage (and shadowmourne has highest weapon damage in game)
death knight they have their spam attak based on weapon damage (aka HS,SS,FS) and melee ofc
Warrior only have melee and only scale with strenght wich can be obtainable through everything else so out of point of view on who would benefit most paladin would win hands down

Warriors don't have an attack based on weapon damage? WW, Cleave/HS, Slam, melee, and DW.

Not to mention Fury Warriors scale better with ArP than Ret paladins.


Now that is done, if they both have equal attendance and contributes equally to the guild, just have them roll/bid since it is BiS and would suit both very well.

Hi my name is Spell Damage. Have we met before? I ignore armor and I dont need 100% arp to do a lot damage.

But with spell damage, comes lower damage. You can either do x damage and account for armor or do .5x and ignore armor(value is just an example).