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# Thread: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

1. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by Danner
Summary for intellect:

1 int is worth ~0.16 MP5 through the spirit formula
1 int is worth ~0.28 MP5 through active cooldowns
1 int is worth ~0.16 MP5 through a large manapool reserve
Summarized, 1 int is worth ~0.6 MP5.
This in turn is increased by 10% through BoK, leaving us at ~0.66 MP5 per point of intellect!
This is worth 1.32 itemization points.
BoK does not add 10% to Int's regen from the spirit formula.
IE: sqrt(110% * 1500) = sqrt(1650) = 40,62 = 104.9% * 38,73 = 104.9% * sqrt(1500)

Overall a good writeup. But on the other hand... I feel the method you used (and the one I applied in my calculator) stumbles on a few problems from our regen model:
- there are many sources of regen
- for every source a set of assumptions must be made
In the current content patch, this set of assumptions hads grown so big that I found modeling regen becoming less and less reliable with our current techniques. No matter which set of assumptions you make, one can only assume it is an approximation of the regen we will get and none of it is 100% certain.

I think I have figured a way to improve it, using integrals over a range of situations, but I'm not even sure I'll manage to work it out before 3.3 is conquered and done with. Oh well...

A few observations I would like to add:

- Spirit provides great base regen. If we assume a healthy dose of INT, Spirit is a rather strong regen stat. Furthermore, depending on the fight, either OFSR regen increases or HC increases making Spirit scale positively with both relax and tough situations. The net effect is that the amount of regen you get from Spirit is less variable than it would seem
- Intellect decreases in value (from spirit regen) with every point you take. You need spirit to inrease its value.
- Depending on the situation, or assumptions, you could make Intellect a little worse than Spirit or a whole lot better.

These observations alone are enough to show that a combination of both Intellect and Spirit is the best gearing strategy. Sacrificing spirit for intellect is a sure way to less regen. I promise you that. Just the same way, sacrificing Intellect for Spirit is a sure shot at bad regen.
If we add the current itemization in the observation, and give preference to items with both spirit and intellect (for most slots) then it is reasonable to assume we have 'enough spirit'. Any ratio we could obtain will show that intellect comes out stronger as regen stat, not because intellect is 'always stronger' (it isn't) but intellect gives an edge when a healthy base of spirit is given.

I see there is some discussion around the crit value of intellect. What bothers me about the equation (and I have this problem in my calculator too) is that crit is valued directly for its rating. I value crit rating less than I value SP. But it is irrelevant, either way. The contribution to crit from intellect isn't so much a 'regen' argument but it is a gearing argument.
oly Concentration, Inspiration and SoL seem to have an optimal crit% interval between 20% and 30%, with crit% lower than 20% giving too little effect from the talents and above 30% suffer a diminishing return. To me, this makes gearing ~23% unbuffed an interesting number which garantees a good return while being flexible towards raidbuffs. When looking at a gearing strategy as a whole, I see that intellect helps me achieve that optimal crit%, reducing my need to gear crit rating. Crit rating is a rather weak stat, vastly inferior to haste rating.
So have 1 strong (though 'unreliable') regen stat that allows us to cut some of that less effective crit rating. With Haste then being a more common stat in our gear, it's best companion is SP, much like Spirit is Intellect's best companion.
So I see this crit value of Intellect more as a way to optimize my gear, allowing me to skip the ineffective crit rating. So naturally, I end up preferring +Int+Spi+Haste items, with gems only balancing things a bit more this or that way (mostly SP oriented).

So Int is not 'vastly superior as regen stat' but it gives an edge in both my regen and my gearing.

2. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Just wanted to throw in that you can also maximize Shadowfiend usage if you cast HoH at the same time while it hits you at least once or twice. That's how I do it :>

3. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by Zusterke
BoK does not add 10% to Int's regen from the spirit formula.
IE: sqrt(110% * 1500) = sqrt(1650) = 40,62 = 104.9% * 38,73 = 104.9% * sqrt(1500)
Whoops! I'll remedy this. That takes us down -0.009 MP5 per point of intellect! Small, but I guess it's worth mentioning.

---

Originally Posted by Zusterke
Overall a good writeup. But on the other hand... I feel the method you used (and the one I applied in my calculator) stumbles on a few problems from our regen model:
- there are many sources of regen
- for every source a set of assumptions must be made
In the current content patch, this set of assumptions hads grown so big that I found modeling regen becoming less and less reliable with our current techniques. No matter which set of assumptions you make, one can only assume it is an approximation of the regen we will get and none of it is 100% certain.

I think I have figured a way to improve it, using integrals over a range of situations, but I'm not even sure I'll manage to work it out before 3.3 is conquered and done with. Oh well...
Yeah, it's damned hard to get a good reliable number that people can use. No matter which model I use, I end up relying on fight time, mana spent or just random proc chances. It's amazingly hard to get a reliable foothold. What we can do is to make a reasonable lower bound case, which is what I think I did here. I suspect the reasonable upper bound is quite a lot better, but I have made no calculations on this. Either way, it would skew the balance in favor of intellect further.

And here GC complained that armor penetration was too mathy...

Originally Posted by Zusterke
A few observations I would like to add:

- Spirit provides great base regen. If we assume a healthy dose of INT, Spirit is a rather strong regen stat. Furthermore, depending on the fight, either OFSR regen increases or HC increases making Spirit scale positively with both relax and tough situations. The net effect is that the amount of regen you get from Spirit is less variable than it would seem
- Intellect decreases in value (from spirit regen) with every point you take. You need spirit to inrease its value.
- Depending on the situation, or assumptions, you could make Intellect a little worse than Spirit or a whole lot better.

These observations alone are enough to show that a combination of both Intellect and Spirit is the best gearing strategy. Sacrificing spirit for intellect is a sure way to less regen. I promise you that. Just the same way, sacrificing Intellect for Spirit is a sure shot at bad regen.
If we add the current itemization in the observation, and give preference to items with both spirit and intellect (for most slots) then it is reasonable to assume we have 'enough spirit'. Any ratio we could obtain will show that intellect comes out stronger as regen stat, not because intellect is 'always stronger' (it isn't) but intellect gives an edge when a healthy base of spirit is given.
This I will agree to. At 0 spirit, you lose all int gains from the spirit formula. At this point, int is no better than spirit, but the crit gains from crit are worse than the spellpower gains from spirit. That's a quarter of the income from intellect lost, and this is a dip it is not possible to ignore, making int no longer "better", in fact it's probably worse at this point. The synergy between int and spirit is strong; abuse it.

Originally Posted by Zusterke
I see there is some discussion around the crit value of intellect. What bothers me about the equation (and I have this problem in my calculator too) is that crit is valued directly for its rating. I value crit rating less than I value SP. But it is irrelevant, either way. The contribution to crit from intellect isn't so much a 'regen' argument but it is a gearing argument.
oly Concentration, Inspiration and SoL seem to have an optimal crit% interval between 20% and 30%, with crit% lower than 20% giving too little effect from the talents and above 30% suffer a diminishing return. To me, this makes gearing ~23% unbuffed an interesting number which garantees a good return while being flexible towards raidbuffs. When looking at a gearing strategy as a whole, I see that intellect helps me achieve that optimal crit%, reducing my need to gear crit rating. Crit rating is a rather weak stat, vastly inferior to haste rating.
So have 1 strong (though 'unreliable') regen stat that allows us to cut some of that less effective crit rating. With Haste then being a more common stat in our gear, it's best companion is SP, much like Spirit is Intellect's best companion.
So I see this crit value of Intellect more as a way to optimize my gear, allowing me to skip the ineffective crit rating. So naturally, I end up preferring +Int+Spi+Haste items, with gems only balancing things a bit more this or that way (mostly SP oriented).
I was seriously surprised when I found that 1 crit rating was worth 1 itemization point. That seems very high indeed, especially considering how ... bad crit is for a holypriest. All it gives is a somewhat higher uptime on holy concentration, some random unreliable throughput and more SoL procs, which in turn might lower your throughput at excessive crit levels. I think I did a calculation on this a year ago, it was high, so it's not really a problem.

But... crit is probably the least wanted stat for a holypriest. Valuing as much as I did is probably not a good idea. We should probably weight these stats based on some desirability weight for holypriests. I have no idea where to begin on that one.

But, even when disregarding the crit boost completely, int still comes out on top in terms of gains per statpoint.

4. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by Danner
Whoops! I'll remedy this. That takes us down -0.009 MP5 per point of intellect! Small, but I guess it's worth mentioning.
Yeah, sorry : I couldn't resist mentioning this detail. I hope it wasn't received as a negative comment since your work would not be worth that Terrific work man!

Originally Posted by Danner
But, even when disregarding the crit boost completely, int still comes out on top in terms of gains per statpoint.
Depending on the situation, int can be slightly worse than spirit or int can be a whole lot better. In the end I think a good dosis of spirit and int with slightly more int (say, 200-300 points) is likely to give the best results. And indeed, changing the crit value would hardly change the conclusion.
Crit is an interesting support stat, but crit rating gives little return for the cost. That's what I like a lot about the crit bonus from int: it's a great regen stat and the crit bonus is a valuable extra (the cherry on the pie) that 'helps' us to avoid needing critrating. I think I once measured crit to require a minimum of 18.4% but preferably above 20% to give us sufficient return from the talents to be worth it (both crit and the talents).

So in conclusion, with the current item levels, Int+Spi+Haste items are highly favourable items for us. We are not in the position like, say Disc priests, where our itemisation steers us away from what we need. As for gems, I would leave it to personal choice but l think favoring int over spirit as regen stat for has become the consensus

5. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by Zusterke
Yeah, sorry : I couldn't resist mentioning this detail. I hope it wasn't received as a negative comment since your work would not be worth that Terrific work man!
Don't worry, man
I'm a perfectionist, so these bugs very much irks me. Thanks for pointing them out :P

6. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Int > all

I've seen the light ~3 weeks ago, and having a lot of int is awesome . Especially since we holy priests aren't quite known as the class who runs oom last =3.

Though do not ignore spirit or treat it as a useless stat. You'll still need at least 2200-2500 SP IMO. But as for mana regen, i'd pref to go int all the way!

7. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by Venara
Just wanted to throw in that you can also maximize Shadowfiend usage if you cast HoH at the same time while it hits you at least once or twice. That's how I do it :>
This might sound good, but it doesn't actually do anything. The extra mana you gain is temporary, so if you cast Shadow Fiend, then Hymn when it Expires while casting nothing else you'll wind up with the same amount of mana (excluding standard regen) as if you cast Hymn+Shadow Fiend.

8. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by harky
This might sound good, but it doesn't actually do anything. The extra mana you gain is temporary, so if you cast Shadow Fiend, then Hymn when it Expires while casting nothing else you'll wind up with the same amount of mana (excluding standard regen) as if you cast Hymn+Shadow Fiend.
Yes it does. Shadowfiend returns 5% of your max mana every hit, 10 hits for 50% total. HoH increases your max mana by 20%, thus increasing the fiends returns to 60% ( a little less as you'll not have HoH till after the first hit).

I tested it on a dummy just to be sure, the returns from mana leech indeed rose 20% when the first tick of HoH hit me. The synergy is there and is sometimes worth abusing, though it will depend on the fight length.

9. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

I think you missed the point. Your fiend does return more mana, yes, but watch your current mana when Hymn wears off fully. The net gain is ultimately the same because you do not gain a higher percentage of maximum mana, only a higher temporary maximum mana figure. Once your max mana returns to normal the extra mana disappears.

10. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by harky
I think you missed the point. Your fiend does return more mana, yes, but watch your current mana when Hymn wears off fully. The net gain is ultimately the same because you do not gain a higher percentage of maximum mana, only a higher temporary maximum mana figure. Once your max mana returns to normal the extra mana disappears.
The mana that's lost when HoH ends is a constant, 20% extra mana. At least that's my experience. It's an additive gain and removal, not multiplicative. Since addition and multiplication are not commutative, this means that fiend under HoH would be expected to return a different amount to fiend outside, even after the end of HoH.

For example I just tested the combination, with just under 26k mana, from oom I ended on 21k.

Sfiend alone - 13k
HoH alone - 3.7k
Sequential total = 16.7k

Sfiend with HoH = 15.6k
Sfiend & HoH total = 19.3k

I suggest you go and test it again.

11. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Just did. Got myself OOM by switching specs to IF-SF and HoH from ~0 mana. I subtracted my normal regen so that I could see how much I was gaining overall.

27.8k max mana unbuffed.

Fiend takes me from ~0 to ~14k.

Hymn pops me up to 33.35k mana and takes me from ~0 to ~4k, but drops down to ~3.2k when the effect expires.

Total = 17.2k mana, 18k mana temporarily.

When I pop both at once my mana goes from ~0 to ~16k, then drops to ~13k then works back up to... you guessed it, 17k mana.

I tried again, this time using HoH towards the end of the Fiend's duration and got the same end result, but had a nice temporary boost up to around 21k mana gained before it dropped back to 17k.

12. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Originally Posted by harky
When I pop both at once my mana goes from ~0 to ~16k, then drops to ~13k then works back up to... you guessed it, 17k mana.
You're popping both in which order?

13. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

You can't pop Shadow Fiend once Hymn is started.

14. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

I really don't understand how you're getting your results. Let me explain my own test in more detail :

In a subset of gear picked out for minimal regen I have 16.1k mana and 145 mp5 OOFSR

HoH returned me 484+580*3 ( these being the ticks from the combat log and the first tick ofc not being based on the 120% pool but the original 16.1k), and I ended on 2.7k when the effect faded. This took around 15 seconds, so after accounting for the 450or so mana HoH indeed returned me the 2200 which the log would indicate. Given that you are running with near twice the mana pool I would estimate your actual HoH return to have been closer to 3.8k.

Summary of HoH: HoH synergy with itself bumps the return from the 12% one might expect to 13.8%. The reason it's not 14.4% is that the first tick doesn't gain the synergy.

Now blowing sfiend and then immediately HoH the test is almost the same length, just an extra GCD, so the passive regen is the same. Since sfiend will naturally return exactly 50% mana, if there was no synergy, popping fiend & immediately HoH should leave me on about 10.7k, with a tiny amount more for an extra GCD worth of regen.

Instead I peak at 15.3 and end at 12.1.

This fits the theory again precisely.

15.3-12.1 = 3.2 or exactly 20% of my starting max mana.

the difference is 12.1-10.7 = 1.4 or approximately 10% of my base max mana, a little less because the first fiend hit is outside HoH.

Summary of SFiend & HoH synergy: Blowing HoH as soon as fiend becomes active results in an increased mana return from fiend from 50% to 59% of max mana. The reason it's not 60% is that the first hit doesn't gain the synergy.

I don't know what you're doing wrong harky but I'm 100% certain that either in your test or your calculation to remove regen you've made a mistake.

15. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Okay, it looks like there's an error being caused by my regen. When I tested naked I did gain slightly more mana than expected. I haven't been able to reproduce it in full gear though, the extra mana matches up with my normal mana regen.

16. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Yeh - it's easiest to demonstrate if you get your spirit as low as possible relative to your int. Otherwise natural regen will tend to conceal the details.

The easiest way to see that the synergy is present though is to watch your mana drop at the end of HoH and note that it decreases by exactly 20% of your pre-HoH max mana.

Once that's established we can conclude that all % mana gain effects will synergize with HoH. Most usefully the fiend, but also torrent & mana totem or a second HoH.

Again, another way to demonstrate the synergy is get 3 priests, all oom yourselves and then blow HoH simultaneously.

Rather than end at 36% of max mana + regen, you'll end at more like 60%.

17. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

hello nerds ^^

i just wanted to say thanks to OP for taking the time to post this
and i found it useful

bb

18. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

I still GEM Hybrid

20INT = Yellow
12Spell 10INT=Orange
10Spi 10INT=GREEN
=>Gemming like this gives you ALL the bonusses without losing absolete stats

Yes INT gives more regain from mana pool and crit heals, but when I often end the fight with 10k mana left, I wonder if stacking more mana regain is usefull

In worse case scenario I group up with a resto shaman to get that sorted

INT as main stat, but would NEVER go full int... I am not a paladin -_-

EDIT: I also prefer Spirit Stat on gear rather then MP5, since Spirit Stat gets buffed with kings (increasing the itemation value a wee bit)

and it also increases your spellpower and it regains 50% more with Holy Concentration procs

and not to forget the passive meditation ^^

19. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

I've started gemming Spellpower in reds,
Reckless in Yellows, and I'm moving slowly away from my Purifieds to more Runeds.

Finishing a fight at 10% mana and you haven't even used your fiend yet? Yeah... too much.

20. ## Re: [Priest / Holy] The value of Intellect

Doesn't the value of Int also ever so barely increase due to the amount of mana gained due to Replenishment during the HoH buff?

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