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  1. #61

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by Leé the Noble
    We killed him in 10-man a few weeks ago with a holy priest shielding people..
    Which is awesome. I killed him without shielding people, and my healing partner was a Resto Shaman. Last I checked, they don't even have Absorb mechanics to exploit. Shaman also had to stop healing to run in for Earth Bind totem, and again for Frost Shock to help kite, seeing as we only had two ranged.

    But it wasn't difficult.
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  2. #62

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Do your Death Knight tanks have to dual spec two tanks, or your warriors running around with a full Prot build and an Unrelenting Assault Arms/Prot hybrid because it's better for "some" fights? Is that all they're supposed to do? Are they not allowed to Arena, BG-honor farm, solo quest, or DPS? Good for you that you dedicate this character to nothing but PvE healing. Disc gear works pretty decently for Holy, but gear tailored to Holy's stat weightings is pretty crummy for Discipline, and building that second set (fourth, for me actually) isn't really something someone should be forced into.

    It is much of a pain when you lose the whole feature of "dual spec" and what it's supposed to accomplish just because your class has two healing trees. Death Knights have three tanking trees. Warriors have two tanking builds. They aren't forced to, Priests shouldn't either.
    Issue is as said above. And sure, you don't have to heal disc 100% of the time. You just have to keep it in your off spec 100% of your time in Icecrown because if you don't and they wipe, they'll blame it on you. Saurfang is not difficult, if you're making it "harder" for 9 other people, maybe they should L2FP the game? Spread out 12 yards. Drag beasts out of melee, and kite them until dead. Make sure to taunt. DPS boss. Pick up loot.

    That's the fight. If they can't understand these concepts, they need to learn them or they need to stop playing. If they're relying on a gimmick right now, in that absorbed damage does not trigger Blood Power (I'm assuming it will in the near future, in all honesty), I hate to say it but they need to figure out what the hell they're doing wrong and work on it. If they can't, then well good luck on getting further in Icecrown, with your fucking terrible guild.

    And Kootz pretty much summed up the rest of my point. Content has yet to actually require any spec since TBC. Your raid makeup could have a grand total of one melee, and you might have some trouble with a few fights but nothing truly difficult with a little more planning. Discipline is zero percent required. Hands down. If you think it is, tell your warriors and Death Knights that they have to run two tank specs at all time or /gkick. See what they have to say to you, if you think it's "weighing down on 9 other people".
    Their guild (omg noob guild u need a disc to beat saurfang) require it, so its up to the OP to adapt to it or not. Building sets for different specs is a cakewalk with current gearing anyway, not like u have to wait weeks for a tierpiece to drop, right? DUalspecs are cheap because gold is coming in like mad so what is the real problem? Loads of guilds have tanks, healers, dps respeccing to beat a fight its been like that in hardcore guilds for like....always?
    Is a disc needed for saurfang? ofc not but their guild is not as pro like yours.
    Paying $15 a month doesn't give you the right to win, it gives you the right to compete, the rest is up to you.

  3. #63

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Not at all needed, there's some good posts here about what the rest of your raid should be doing to limit blood power generation. We have no disc priest, marks dont get off at all, it's far more about raid execution.

    Nifty thing i will mention is if you have a rogue they can tricks of the trade a ranged and tear a blood beast to pieces.
    Same sort of thing, hunters can MD away from themselves and distracting shot acting like a taunt juggle rather than needing ranged to move away from blood beasts at all. Maximise dps time, minimise movement.
    Again, along the same lines, tank not tanking can ranged taunt a beast back towards themselves when it gets close to ranged, it either dies or gets pulled back before it gets remotely near hitting tank range.
    Holy pallies also have a range taunt.

  4. #64

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    You may find after downing him a few times, you could well find you no longer need to be disc. For example, on my rogue back in Ulduar, I was mutilate. The only rogue in our 25 man raid. And we were having trouble getting Thorim down, so I volunteered to go FoK interupt spec (combat) to help alleviate the pressure in the arena room. It helped us get our first kill, but by the time Blizz get rid of Fok interupts, our raid no longer needed that extra edge to down the boss anyway.

    As your raid gets better at the fight and cleans up blood power generation, etc, you may no longer need to be disc.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  5. #65
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Well, not needed, just like 3 Holy paladins ain't needed on Anub HC, but it's highly recommended.

  6. #66

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    If they ever hotfixed Blood Power being generated through shields like Rage does, or Divine Plea refresh working, or the fact that runes used by strikes against a shield still generate Runic Power...

    Well, if they ever fixed Blood Power, I can almost guarantee all the people here saying "omg disc is required! less qq u shuld dual spec anyways" will suddenly be crying that Discipline will be "useless". Again.

    This should be obvious.
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  7. #67

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    No need to go disc at all, stay holy and remember to pick you most fancy talent "Body and Soul". That way you can help everyone who get a Blood Beast on them with kiting and you can absorb a good bit of the dmg the Blood Beast would have done. I havent read page 2-4 so sorry if this has already been mentioned.

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  8. #68

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    About 5 months ago I joined a new guild as our old one fell apart. While raiding with this new guild I was frequently asked to tank heal. I was well aware that holy spec isnt the best for tank healing and seeing as we didnt have a holy pala etc and we already had 2 other holy priests I dropped my dps off spec and went disc with it to help out the guild during raids. At first it felt a touch strange but you soon get used to it.

    People who are not keen on switching - heres what I did.

    swap keybinding/mousebuttons for

    circle of healing -> powerword shield
    renew -> pennance

    (i dont bother with renew while healing as disc)

    everything else stays the same.

    I run clique, grid and bartender4 (& decursive etc...) and have it set up so when I swap specs my toolbars and mouse bindings swap automatically. This lets me easliy swap between the 2 styles of healing as and when required. Now I run disc almost all the time as I love the healing style of it, I might swap to holy every now and again for heroics or something just to keep upto speed with the play style or if the fight needs more aoe healing.

    I have alts for all my dps, farming needs (lock, mage & drood)

    Lets face facts here. The main reason that most priests dont want to go disc is because they like riding the meters. Plain and simple. I've gone from the top of the meters as holy to right down at the bottom as disc. If your guild pick the healers solely on how they do on recount then its probably not the greatest guild out there. Besides with all my gear kitted out purely for disc spec I can still usually dominate the meters when I switch back to holy

    However, the people saying that guilds are "shit" etc because they take a class/spec to a fight because it makes it easier need to get a grip. This is a game, its supposed to be fun. Its not fun spending all night wiping, if a certian class or spec makes a particular boss abit easier than by all means use it while everyone learns the fight.

    Take our guild trip to ICC25 last night. We went in and one shotted the boat (everyone with massive server lag i might add) and then spent the remainder of the night wipeing on saurfang - thats with a disc priest in the team (me). Does this make our guild shit, no I dont think so. We have 2 10 man groups that have cleared the first wing (one group on the first night) but for alot of people lastnight it was their first time on that boss. Fights need to be learnt by everyone in the group and this takes time.

    The folks saying that you should find another guild because of "this" and "that" are more than likely just going to be loot whores. Are the people in your guild your mates who you enjoy playing with or are you just using them to get gear on your back?

    Anyway endless wipes on a boss just make victory all the sweeter.

  9. #69

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    We downed him without a priest... whats the big deal?

  10. #70

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    At least you're not functionally useless for all/most of a fight like;
    - Frost mages vs Sapphiron-40
    - Fire mages/locks vs Baron Geddon, Ragnaros, heaps of BWL bosses, Al'ar
    - Ele shamans vs Hydross
    - Mutilate rogues vs Poison immune bosses (pre-change)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kootz
    I hate posts like this that imply a fight requires a disc priest. its all horse shit. your in a lower progression guild. There is nothing wrong with that. however it also means you will struggle with current content. that struggle is lessened by having a disc priest in the raid with you. thats it.
    Echoing this.
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  11. #71

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by xlava
    (i dont bother with renew while healing as disc)
    No reason not to.
    Now I run disc almost all the time as I love the healing style of it
    'kay.

    Lets face facts here. The main reason that most priests dont want to go disc is because they like riding the meters. Plain and simple.
    So you love the playstyle of Discipline, but I'm not allowed to love the reactionary style of Holy? The effective unmatched raid burst healing, the "Oh Shit" button that effectively has a 70 second cooldown? The Lightwell that I can drop on any boss for epic lulz, or as a glowing white raid beacon that you can actually see on Festergut as a "Group up here" spot, while still healing myself through a disorient? Hate to say it, but no, you're wrong. I don't even run with meters, but my guess is you still use Skada or GuessedAbsorbRecount to try and track yours as Discipline.

    I've gone from the top of the meters as holy to right down at the bottom as disc. If your guild pick the healers solely on how they do on recount then its probably not the greatest guild out there. Besides with all my gear kitted out purely for disc spec I can still usually dominate the meters when I switch back to holy
    Or you have shitty resto druids, and/or Paladins depending on which fight. You yourself strive to "top meters" rather than "be effective". That's usually a sign of a bad Holy Priest.

    However, the people saying that guilds are "shit" etc because they take a class/spec to a fight because it makes it easier need to get a grip. This is a game, its supposed to be fun. Its not fun spending all night wiping, if a certian class or spec makes a particular boss abit easier than by all means use it while everyone learns the fight.
    It's not fun losing the functionality that Blizzard gave through Dual Spec just because some person says it's required. They're sucking. That's that. It's also not fun playing the playstyle that I don't particularily find myself attached to (and haven't even ran since having 3 disc at the beginning of Ulduar-10). I've been Holy since 2.0, I did a stint as Discipline, sure. I tried it out. I even had it as my dual spec for a long time. Doesn't mean I like it.

    Take our guild trip to ICC25 last night. We went in and one shotted the boat
    Because that's hard? :
    and then spent the remainder of the night wipeing on saurfang - thats with a disc priest in the team (me).
    'kay. Welcome to almost-progression.
    Does this make our guild shit, no I dont think so.
    If your group needs to exploit that Absorbs don't trigger Blood Power (GM confirmed this was a bug for me, have fun with that by the way), and forces you to respec because they can't spread out or kill beasts properly, then no I'm sorry, your guild would be shit.

    Fights need to be learnt by everyone in the group and this takes time.
    Agreed. The original post said that his guild makes it required that he runs as discipline for the fight. That's not the people learning it. That's them choosing to not learn how to better themselves so they can use him as a crutch.

    The folks saying that you should find another guild because of "this" and "that" are more than likely just going to be loot whores.
    Not really. Drama problems are stronger everywhere than loot problems. I ran Illidan and Kalecgos with frak'ing Light's Justice, for crying out loud.
    Are the people in your guild your mates who you enjoy playing with or are you just using them to get gear on your back?
    Fun. Encounters are fun when you're playing by the rules, not by exploits. When you're choosing a playstyle you like, not one that's forced on you. But I take it you're one of the people who would've sanctioned the Flame Leviathin exploit too, and if some people hated it and left you would've called them loot whores?

    Anyway endless wipes on a boss just make victory all the sweeter.
    True story. Changing people's mindsets about how to do the boss and having it succeed is much much sweeter than carrying their terrible asses, though.
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  12. #72

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    I think it depends on your raid setup and the other healer(s).

    I've done it both as disc and holy... Disc did seem a little easer imo but to be honest both specs work. I can't really see the spec being the reason for a wipe on this boss.


  13. #73

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    There is a lot of heated debate and answers already in this thread, but the simple answer here is no, you do not need a Disc priest for this fight. In fact, you don't even need a priest at all. Our guild first for Saurfang on 25 man in the first week was with only paladin healers, and only a handful at that. Our priest raidleader / classleader came up with the suggestion himself, relogged his hunter alt for extra damage and iirc another healer switched to his damage offspec too. The only priest we had left was our dedicated Shadow specced damage dealer.

    There was another raid the following week that I had been on my priest alt rather than my hunter and when it came to Saurfang I actually got asked to switch from Discipline to my very lame (gear wise and talent wise, probably) Shadow offspec. In fact, here's the video of this attempt, we didn't have fraps for the actual guild first sadly;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrp0crlW6CY

    My character there is called Menardis, I was wearing 5 man ToC hc chest and a mix of healing and soso-dps gear from the new ICC 5 mans, if even that. I wanted to switch to my hunter just to do some real damage so badly but hey we downed him.

    I personally don't like switching any talents or specs because I have to, and since early TBC my guild has always let it's guild members run with whatever specs they feel like (although with apps I guess the officers look for something more specific) and very occasionally will they ask people to spec this or that but most of the time most people don't seem to mind. I try and be more flexible these days and not let it get to me, but perhaps your guild is leaning on you too much. At the very least they could pay for your respecs and stuff.. but honestly you shouldn't HAVE to spec anything if you feel uncomfortable with it and basically don't enjoy it. Some people enjoy helping out others by doing the same thing, but I know I'd hate playing my priest if I had to spec Holy for a fight every week so I do sympathise with you.

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  14. #74
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    We regularly kill him with a Paladin and Shaman healer in 10man.

    On our very first few tries we tried with me as a shadowpriest shielding people but when that didn't really work out because of my dps lowering and the shields not really holding that much damage, we just didn't bother anymore and killed him with fulldps.
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  15. #75

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    We regularly kill him with a Paladin and Shaman healer in 10man.

    On our very first few tries we tried with me as a shadowpriest shielding people but when that didn't really work out because of my dps lowering and the shields not really holding that much damage, we just didn't bother anymore and killed him with fulldps.
    But you didn't spec Discipline, and you beat the encounter without abusing absorb mechanics? No way! You must certainly be exploiting, or obviously in a much better guild than us lowly priests here!

    Oh, wait.
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  16. #76

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNerfherder
    Needed? No. But with one the fight is a pushover.
    ^ This
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  17. #77
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    But you didn't spec Discipline, and you beat the encounter without abusing absorb mechanics? No way! You must certainly be exploiting, or obviously in a much better guild than us lowly priests here!

    Oh, wait.
    Nyah. Disc sucks IMHO, and when I have to make do as the 3rd healer (like for our tries on rotface last time) I'm holy. Seeing as I can better raidheal, better tankheal (for all those 8 seconds windows where penance would be down at least) and have more fun doing it as holy (doing stuff when procs happen is fun for me, having lots of instants is fun for me, waiting for penance to come off the cd and shielding the raid inbetween penances is not).
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  18. #78

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Was the fight a lot easier and pain-free when you went disc? Yes? Then why complain about it? Fill your role as a healer in the raid and move on. Switching to disc (which I hate too) for one fight will not kill you.

  19. #79

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    Quote Originally Posted by jestible
    Was the fight a lot easier and pain-free when you went disc? Yes? Then why complain about it? Fill your role as a healer in the raid and move on. Switching to disc (which I hate too) for one fight will not kill you.
    *Smack* You do not cast Resurrection on this thread! No! Bad! And that's not the attitude with "bring the player not the class/spec". If you can't do the encounter as Holy, you might want to look at what your group's doing wrong, not your spec (because even Shadow can heal it easily enough, unless you're full of bads).

    Tell your raid no one's allowed to have a PvP offspec. You're not allowed DPS warriors, they all must be survival Prot and either Unrelenting/Assault (Revenge Spam) hybrid, or a secondary Prot build that must be for faster trash clears.

    You can't have Ret Paladins. Either Prot/Holy, or Holy/Holy subspecs. Death Knights must also be composed of two tank specs. Druids must fulfill either dual resto builds with talent focus shifts, or dual feral tank builds (again with different focus), or one of each.

    How stupid does all of this sound? Really? It sounds fucking retarded. The only people who would be expected to have dual-spec DPS roles would be pure DPS classes that don't like to PvP. That's it. Anyone else should be free, at this stage and any other stage, to play the spec of their choice. Some perform better than others, especially in different situations. That's fine. But no one, absolutely no one, should be forced into a spec just because their class has two healing trees.

    This thread is over. Let it die.
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  20. #80

    Re: Forced to go discipline because of Saurfang

    I agree with kenesti. I am disc main spec and for Saurfang I usually turn shadow. A well mastered fight should lead to low damages on raid (positionning, best avoiding and fast killikng) and so low blood rune energy gain. On a 10 man you should have no problem having at maximum 1 mark but you should have a single one. On a 25 it can be a more usefull indeed, but absoluteely not mandatory.

    This fight is not really a healing challenge at all, it is a dps reactivity and, focus and damage challenge. Analyzing failures like the result of no disc priest in the raid is just retarded. Your raid leader should know it, if not...

    If everyone's jumping in a AOE damage area, you can turn any spec you want you can do nothing for them. Disc would just postpone for 1sec their death. Same case here.

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