A little ele help plz

[Bergg]

And hello, Zamir! I've seen you posting here, but it wasn't until just now that I realized that you were the ZAP! guy. I like your blog.

[Restless]

By the way, allow me to dispel this myth that the BiS list has only two pieces of tier 10. There are two BiS lists, one with 2t10 and one with 4t10, both made by the same guy. The one with 4t10 has been TCed as slightly higher DPS than the 2t10 list, but nobody's quite sure how it'll work out in-game so we're not committing to one list.

Some folks who know this are already saying they'll aim for only two pieces of tier 10, but the reason is not because 2t10 is coming out on top in sims (because it isn't) - it's a combination of the very small difference between the two sets' DPS values, the predicted fragility and awkwardness of trying to incorporate 4t10, and perhaps the availability or otherwise of emblems/tokens. In other words, nobody knows how 4t10 will really play out but it looks like it'll be a small enough difference that personal preference will be more of a deciding factor than numbers.

These 'BiS Lists' mean nothing. Nothing at all. Have any of you tried the t10 4piece out? No. So quit judging it and saying it isn't good.

FS, LvB, CL,LB,LB,LB,LB Will be the rotation.

Which is about 975 haste + 5% caster haste + our Totem.

Thus making crit a more usable stat.

[Deleted]

Have you tried the t10 4piece out? No. So quit judging it and saying it is good.

/fixed

You're fighting against theorycrafter. They DO know it better than you, because they do the maths behind it. You don't. You just think "4pc T10 sounds nice because of this and that", which is just not right.
The bonus itself is not that bad, it's the fact that you have to take a Hit/Crit-item to get it which makes it bad.
And your math doesn't really add up.
It's 1180 haste rating, Wrath of Air Totem AND Ret/Owl-Aura for 4 LB and a CL to fit perfectly into the 6.5sec CD of 4pc T10 LvB.


I have to say that I didn't know that the 4pc comes out ahead of 2pc+3 offpieces, just saw the one post about those lists in which the 2pc was ahead by ~50 DPS... my mistake :/

[Zamir]

These 'BiS Lists' mean nothing. Nothing at all. Have any of you tried the t10 4piece out? No. So quit judging it and saying it isn't good.

Please do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before you try to disagree with them! You see, as I actually said in the piece you quoted, the whole point is that nobody knows how good or otherwise it will be in practice. And as I also said, the 4t10 BiS list is rated (slightly) higher than the 2t10 one.

This is based on two possible methods of handling the 4t10 bonus in a "rotation" (by which we of course mean dynamic priority system). The first method is a normal priority system which returns slightly higher DPS but runs the high risk of Flame Shock expiring mid Lava Burst cast every 4 or 5 "cycles"; the second relies upon deliberately refreshing Flame Shock early to avoid that possibility.

These are, of course, just convenient ways to theorycraft the bonus: in reality it's more likely that a combination of the two methods - with occasional intelligent Flame Shock clipping - would be used. But that would make the actual DPS of the bonus lie somewhere between the high and low results we get from current theorycraft, and the difference between the two is only around 50 DPS anyway.

As I've said, how 4t10 works in practice is something we are all waiting to find out. But constructing a rigid rotation based on specific haste values is something that we learned not to do a long, long time ago - back in the early days of the WotLK beta, in fact. Ranting against theorycraft then proposing a return to the very worst variety of it in the form of rigid pre-planned rotations that look good on paper but utterly fail in-game is somewhat ironic

[Primaryjane]

because mail gear through vendors all have MP5 on them and that is useless to me

On a lesser note, Mp5 is MUCH less useless to you than Spirit is. Spirit does absolutely nothing for classes that wear mail or plate and is just a wasted stat, where as Mp5 will atleast give you some mana back.

[Restless]

/fixed

You're fighting against theorycrafter. They DO know it better than you, because they do the maths behind it. You don't. You just think "4pc T10 sounds nice because of this and that", which is just not right.
The bonus itself is not that bad, it's the fact that you have to take a Hit/Crit-item to get it which makes it bad.
And your math doesn't really add up.
It's 1180 haste rating, Wrath of Air Totem AND Ret/Owl-Aura for 4 LB and a CL to fit perfectly into the 6.5sec CD of 4pc T10 LvB.


I have to say that I didn't know that the 4pc comes out ahead of 2pc+3 offpieces, just saw the one post about those lists in which the 2pc was ahead by ~50 DPS... my mistake :/

There's no theorycrafting behind it. It can't be used.
There's a bunch of dipshit theorycrafters who think there good because they can use a calculator.

They haven't used 4pc 10. So, they know nothing behind it.

[Restless]

Please do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before you try to disagree with them! You see, as I actually said in the piece you quoted, the whole point is that nobody knows how good or otherwise it will be in practice. And as I also said, the 4t10 BiS list is rated (slightly) higher than the 2t10 one.

This is based on two possible methods of handling the 4t10 bonus in a "rotation" (by which we of course mean dynamic priority system). The first method is a normal priority system which returns slightly higher DPS but runs the high risk of Flame Shock expiring mid Lava Burst cast every 4 or 5 "cycles"; the second relies upon deliberately refreshing Flame Shock early to avoid that possibility.

These are, of course, just convenient ways to theorycraft the bonus: in reality it's more likely that a combination of the two methods - with occasional intelligent Flame Shock clipping - would be used. But that would make the actual DPS of the bonus lie somewhere between the high and low results we get from current theorycraft, and the difference between the two is only around 50 DPS anyway.

As I've said, how 4t10 works in practice is something we are all waiting to find out. But constructing a rigid rotation based on specific haste values is something that we learned not to do a long, long time ago - back in the early days of the WotLK beta, in fact. Ranting against theorycraft then proposing a return to the very worst variety of it in the form of rigid pre-planned rotations that look good on paper but utterly fail in-game is somewhat ironic

I read what you said, just quoted the wrong person. Didn't think it mattered that much

[Zamir]

There's no theorycrafting behind it. It can't be used.
There's a bunch of dipshit theorycrafters who think there good because they can use a calculator.

They haven't used 4pc 10. So, they know nothing behind it.

I am one of the "dipshit theorycrafters" you refer to. I'm not sure why you're so upset with "theorycrafters" when you yourself have tried to theorycraft your own 4t10 rotation. The only difference is that I showed my reasoning and you didn't.

We "dipshit theorycrafters" have intricately modelled the effect of 4-piece tier 10 on what spells we cast and when, and as such are reasonably confident that for single targets the models we have are good indicators of the boundaries of reality. What is much harder to work through is how it will affect more complex scenarios, but we've been discussing the ins and outs of that for months and, again, have a pretty good idea of what the highs and lows are likely to be. This doesn't mean we're right (and we ourselves would be the first to say it), but it means you'll have to do a lot more to convince us than just call us names.

If you think you have something to contribute to the discussion - a critique of our methods, or a different conclusion, or whatever - then please feel free. Only, be prepared to show your working, elucidate upon your reasoning, and be familiar with the previous discussions. That is to say, be prepared to participate in the community in a constructive and helpful way. Otherwise you're just another philosophy major emailing the president of physics.