Prot Frost Emblem Question

[Melonberry]

But how many extra armor pieces eat into the tier? I can only think of two and surely losing only one of them would be a worthwhile for a strong 4 set.

E: You logged out in ret gear.

3.
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/49904/pillars-of-might/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50968/c...ic-chestguard/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50978/g...of-the-kraken/

Also, as a note, my paladin is my alt and won't likely be in hardmodes. But I will be tanking normal modes. The extra cooldown really wont be needed, and really isn't that strong. It's better than nothing, but its only a 12% chance to dodge that hit coming after the unavoidable damage while (assuming physical damage) the armor will lower it.

You can go either way. These are the best set bonuses tanks have gotten, but from my standpoint, they really aren't enough to give up the other stuff for those slots.

[Offhand]

3.
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/49904/pillars-of-might/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50968/c...ic-chestguard/
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50978/g...of-the-kraken/

2, that chest is ass.

And if you're not doing hardmodes, it doesn't really matter how you gear.

[Avex]

You can't go wrong with the trinket. Your never going to get a healer complaining you have to much health. The on use isn't bad for situations against a boss. It's all damage.

Unless you have found away to dodge fireballs.

[Melonberry]

2, that chest is ass.

And if you're not doing hardmodes, it doesn't really matter how you gear.

I wish that were true, I'd wear ret gear :P

Gearing won't have to be top of the line if you aren't doing hardmodes, but it is still a lot better to put effort into it. I often went into togc25 well after 3.2 was out, but it's not as likely for icc25 as the instance is much longer. I bet this is going to be the case for many people. Not exactly discussed at EJ or anything, but still valid.
The chest is the weakest of them, but only because threat is a total nonissue. But that also brings up that you are sacrificing 2 pieces for the 4p bonus, even if one isn't as great. Many people just get 4 (Or 5) pieces of tier because they assume it's the best.

Then again, I likely wont craft anything for my alt anytime soon. So I may end up with 4pt10. I'm just not convinced it's going to be that great.

[Bowen]

I would say to anyone avoid the trinket until last really, people seem to create a hype around it and then others who are not really up to date about things have dumped all their badges on the trinket when the gloves (non tier) and belt beat it hands down.

[schiwing]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...krock&n=Holyho

Just picked up the cloak today, going for the trinket next. So guessing since crafted legs are in there, that they are better for us than getting our 4p T10?

Apologies if this comes off as harsh, but know that I mean to only help you in becoming a better tank.
I suggest before you pick up any new gear that you sit down and read some theory crafting about your class.

Some things I noticed rather quickly were (with 1 example per section):

5-6 items enchanted improperly.

• Example: Using Tuskarr's Vitality boot enchant with 2/2 points in Pursuit of Justice

6-7 items socketed improperly.

• Example: Skipping over stamina bonuses; 10 agi / 24 sta (15+9) is better than 30 sta.

Lastly, a very questionable protection spec (talents/glyphs).

• Example: Picking up 5/5 Benediction while completely avoiding (0/5) Deflection.

[plee]

The "key" with the trinket is not to use it by itself but pop your Divine Protection THEN use the trinket. If you have Divine Protection, Sacred Shield, Divine Plea 3% dmg reduction via glyph: the trinket's use effect will last longer.

[Needonboots]

I would say to anyone avoid the trinket until last really, people seem to create a hype around it and then others who are not really up to date about things have dumped all their badges on the trinket when the gloves (non tier) and belt beat it hands down.

They can't beat it "hands down" for everyone. Because it is solely dependent on the size of the upgrade. Effective health gearing is still the way forward, and I gained far more from the trinket than from the others. Roughly 2300 health in fact, which the belt upgrade wouldn't have done. The vendor gloves won't be worth it assuming I went for 4T10, since there are better offset items to use.

[Boldy]

It's still amazing how tanks fail to realize stamina has huge diminishing returns in most fights.

Basically, if healers can keep you up without going under a comfort limit (let's say 10-20% HP) anytime of the encounter, more stamina becomes just an e-peen stat.

ICC brings fights like saurfang and gunship where avoidance (getting hit less) becomes really an important part of the mechanic and stamina trinkets are swapped with dodge/onyxia ones :-)

Therefore... at least for me, the badge trinket is not on my shopping list atm.

The only tanking stat that does not suffer from diminishing returns is ARMOR. Get all the vendor armor items with prio and use them.

It is my opinion (after checking on ICC loot) that for the 2-set bonus the most adequate slots are: Head and Shoulders. They can be purchesed more or less last because you have a nice helm and very good shoulders dropping atm in ICC25. These can replace the mentioned 2 pieces for some time.
For chest, gloves = get the badge ones with extra armor
Pants = get the crafted ones... they are insanely good

According to my level of gear, the shopping order is:
1. Gloves with extra armor (got them already)
2. Chest with extra armor (will get it these days)
3. Belt with extra armor
4. Cloak with extra armor
5. Setitem Head/Shoulders

The pants are crafted with the primal saronite farmed by alts. Should happen in the next 2 weeks.
Crafted boots are of no interest (TOGC25 ftw) unless I get into aggro issues in future ICC encounters and need more hit... that prolly won't happen.

The above order can change according to your gear lvl. Point is... in the end, you will want to have all these things.

Name's Escargot - Kazzak - EU, in case someone wants to check armory.

Cheers!

[davesurfer]

The "key" with the trinket is not to use it by itself but pop your Divine Protection THEN use the trinket. If you have Divine Protection, Sacred Shield, Divine Plea 3% dmg reduction via glyph: the trinket's use effect will last longer.

Yes sir, I have it macro'd with Divine Prot. Same CD


Obviously It really depends on current gear. I have had the worst lock on rolls. My trinket was still 200 and back 213. My weapon was 232 and everything else is 245+. So for me the trinket and cloak were huge upgrades, so I bought them. Now I have to decide where to go next.

I guess I have to get off my lazy ass and farm 2xfrost on all my alts to get the saronite. (have 4 idle 80s, and an alt Prot pally for another raid lockout)

[ragingsoul]

It's still amazing how tanks fail to realize stamina has huge diminishing returns in most fights.

Basically, if healers can keep you up without going under a comfort limit (let's say 10-20% HP) anytime of the encounter, more stamina becomes just an e-peen stat.

ICC brings fights like saurfang and gunship where avoidance (getting hit less) becomes really an important part of the mechanic and stamina trinkets are swapped with dodge/onyxia ones :-)

Therefore... at least for me, the badge trinket is not on my shopping list atm.

The only tanking stat that does not suffer from diminishing returns is ARMOR. Get all the vendor armor items with prio and use them.

It is my opinion (after checking on ICC loot) that for the 2-set bonus the most adequate slots are: Head and Shoulders. They can be purchesed more or less last because you have a nice helm and very good shoulders dropping atm in ICC25. These can replace the mentioned 2 pieces for some time.
For chest, gloves = get the badge ones with extra armor
Pants = get the crafted ones... they are insanely good

According to my level of gear, the shopping order is:
1. Gloves with extra armor (got them already)
2. Chest with extra armor (will get it these days)
3. Belt with extra armor
4. Cloak with extra armor
5. Setitem Head/Shoulders

The pants are crafted with the primal saronite farmed by alts. Should happen in the next 2 weeks.
Crafted boots are of no interest (TOGC25 ftw) unless I get into aggro issues in future ICC encounters and need more hit... that prolly won't happen.

The above order can change according to your gear lvl. Point is... in the end, you will want to have all these things.

Name's Escargot - Kazzak - EU, in case someone wants to check armory.

Cheers!

you're forgetting that armor is only good for physical dmg, stamina is EH for both physical and magical dmg, hence, almost always better. with about a 1:11 ratio for stamina: armor, 10 stamina is worth around 110 armor.
if I take your gear with the armor trinket, compare to mine, your 33k armor compare to my 30k, you gain 3k armor, which is around 272 stamina in EH, for a pala, that's 3122hp, putting you at 46.4k hp.
So you may have more armor, but too much armor with so much magical dmg going around is useless if you don't follow with the hp.

simply put, the more armor you have, the more each point of stamina with be worth. In the same way, the more stamina you have, the more you will gain from each point of armor.

[Lumidar]

6-7 items socketed improperly.

• Example: Skipping over stamina bonuses; 10 agi / 24 sta (15+9) is better than 30 sta.

that is more of a personal choice. to me, 6stam is better than 10agi since i focus on EH more than avoidance. (that's because I'm already above 102.4% mitigation)

and as stated in the post above, Stamina is good against magic attacks as well. it does NOT suffer from diminishing returns and instead gives you a BONUS to mitigation by increase the range of your Ardent Defender damage reduction. (The higher your health pool the higher the 35% health mark goes and gives you more range of reduced damage)

[ragingsoul]

that is more of a personal choice. to me, 6stam is better than 10agi since i focus on EH more than avoidance. (that's because I'm already above 102.4% mitigation)

and as stated in the post above, Stamina is good against magic attacks as well. it does NOT suffer from diminishing returns and instead gives you a BONUS to mitigation by increase the range of your Ardent Defender damage reduction. (The higher your health pool the higher the 35% health mark goes and gives you more range of reduced damage)

well, if you're doing ICC, I doubt you will be above 102.4% with -20% dodge, but the point is that if you go for EH, which you should for progression, 10 agility gives you 22 armor, worth around 2 stamina. So yes 30 stamina will always win in a EH battle.

We did festergut today on 25men, fun fight. getting hit for 25k+ is normal, you should aim to survive 2 hits without any heal (which should not happen since all dmg will be on tanks, and not the raid but better safe than sorry). I'm aiming for 60k buffed at least (I'm at 59.7k raid buffed). the heroic version of this will be interesting. avoidance is only good until you get 2 hits in a row and die, some tanks don't get that. having healed on my resto druid some puged low EH tanks, you have a heart attack each time they take 1 hit, and no room for heal error, lag, or moving out of the fire.

and yeah, I don't know why I didn't catch that before, but stamina doesn't have any diminishing returns. what you're trying to say I think, is that it's useless to stack more EH at some point, because you won't be able to survive another hit anyway, no matter how much you put (like brutallus). That is true, but not all bosses hit for the same amount, largest I saw at the moment on me was around 30k, so aiming for 60k to take 2 hits is my first aim. That said, stacking more EH after than isn't useless, if you're not healed to 100% each time, it will make the difference. also note that avoidance didn't had any DR for sunwell, so stacking it wasn't the same as now. stamina and armor are still king when considering progression tanking.

[Offhand]

The only tanking stat that does not suffer from diminishing returns is ARMOR. Get all the vendor armor items with prio and use them.

It is my opinion (after checking on ICC loot) that for the 2-set bonus the most adequate slots are: Head and Shoulders. They can be purchesed more or less last because you have a nice helm and very good shoulders dropping atm in ICC25. These can replace the mentioned 2 pieces for some time.
For chest, gloves = get the badge ones with extra armor
Pants = get the crafted ones... they are insanely good

According to my level of gear, the shopping order is:
1. Gloves with extra armor (got them already)
2. Chest with extra armor (will get it these days)
3. Belt with extra armor
4. Cloak with extra armor
5. Setitem Head/Shoulders

The pants are crafted with the primal saronite farmed by alts. Should happen in the next 2 weeks.
Crafted boots are of no interest (TOGC25 ftw) unless I get into aggro issues in future ICC encounters and need more hit... that prolly won't happen.

The above order can change according to your gear lvl. Point is... in the end, you will want to have all these things.

Name's Escargot - Kazzak - EU, in case someone wants to check armory.

Yeesh, ok, umm.... Where to start?

Armor has suffered from diminishing returns since Burning Crusade. Not to say armor isn't useful, but you need to get your facts straight.

Your first two gear choices are suspect. The gloves are fairly passable, but unless your trinket combo was JV/H:JV, I seriously recommend picking up the trinket first, as it's the only item I suspect to see in a hardmode gear setup.

Next, the chest is ass. There's no way around this fact. I'm fine with trading avoidance for EH but when the trade comes at a few percent avoidance in exchange for a little bit of EH, you need to draw the line. Not to mention, as a paladin you're already playing near the expertise soft cap most of the time anyway.

Finally, you logged in ret gear but I can see your spec needs work. Drop 5/5 divinity and one point of SA. Pick up crusade before even considering getting items for threat.

[Boldy]

that is more of a personal choice. to me, 6stam is better than 10agi since i focus on EH more than avoidance. (that's because I'm already above 102.4% mitigation)

and as stated in the post above, Stamina is good against magic attacks as well. it does NOT suffer from diminishing returns and instead gives you a BONUS to mitigation by increase the range of your Ardent Defender damage reduction. (The higher your health pool the higher the 35% health mark goes and gives you more range of reduced damage)

Well, until now in ICC, more stamina (at my current gear level) is useless in both 10 man and 25 man.

However, in fights like:
1. Marrowgar / Festergut --> armor is KING
2. Gunship Battle / Deathbringer Saurfanf --> max avoidance is the way to go

Atm is just a matter of personal taste and flavor but when HC modes hit I expect to see more tanks having different sets for different fights.

Yeesh, ok, umm.... Where to start?

Armor has suffered from diminishing returns since Burning Crusade. Not to say armor isn't useful, but you need to get your facts straight.

That's entirely not true. While it is true that more armor will increase the %dmg reduction with a smaller and smaller percentage, your Lifetime expectancy (time to death w/o geting healed) evolves linearly if you do the maths.
Therefore no diminishing returns.

Your first two gear choices are suspect. The gloves are fairly passable, but unless your trinket combo was JV/H:JV, I seriously recommend picking up the trinket first, as it's the only item I suspect to see in a hardmode gear setup.

See the begining of this post... at which ICC boss do you think stamina will be the main stat on HC? Maybe at lady Deathwhisper if you tank the side with 2 magical adds? maybe... but we have a bear tank for that.
Sidenote: I do have H:JV... but it belongs to the HP tanking set that I never find myself equipping in ICC atm.

Next, the chest is ass. There's no way around this fact. I'm fine with trading avoidance for EH but when the trade comes at a few percent avoidance in exchange for a little bit of EH, you need to draw the line. Not to mention, as a paladin you're already playing near the expertise soft cap most of the time anyway.

It is true that with TOGC25 gear I was over expertise softcap all time... well last night, with new ICC gear (got Marrowgar's pants) and with the badge chest i barely made it to 26 expertise (10 exp. glyph included).
Yes, you do trade avoidance but you trade it for mitigation (you get hit more often for less dmg). Different gear for different fights. See begining of post where ya need armor atm... maybe other future bosses also.
Also... it's not few percentage avoidance due to diminishing returns.
And it's not "little bit EH"... because it's shitloads of armor that will make those spikes smaller and healers happier.

Finally, you logged in ret gear but I can see your spec needs work. Drop 5/5 divinity and one point of SA. Pick up crusade before even considering getting items for threat.

Well... I'm the guild 3rd tank so in fights with 2 tanks I dps... nothing to do about it Last night after ICC25 I just logged.

I don't get the "your spec needs work". You suggest I need to drop mana regen+survivability for additional threat/more tank DPS?
If yes... remember you are there to tank and AFAIK paladins never have threat issues. I know I don't.

Edit: spelling mistakes... probably more mistakes left, please bear with me as english is not my 1st language

[Lumidar]

2. Gunship Battle / Deathbringer Saurfang --> max avoidance is the way to go

is this for Heroic Mode? cus i don't see this being a problem at all in normal... unless you're going for the "I'm on a Boat" achievement for the gunship. Saurfang needs to be taunted to prevent the rune of blood healing.

so please explain.

[mograineprotpally]

I think he means, in regards to saurfang, everytime he hits you he gets a Blood Point (or w/e). therefore, if he misses you or doesnt hit you, he doesnt get it.

[Offhand]

*Sigh* OK, you're not going to listen to logic here so I'm just going to attempt to set the facts straight.

That's entirely not true. While it is true that more armor will increase the %dmg reduction with a smaller and smaller percentage, your Lifetime expectancy (time to death w/o geting healed) evolves linearly if you do the maths.
Therefore no diminishing returns.

The same can be said of avoidance. That being said, no one claims avoidance doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. Each point of armor is less effective then the last.

See the begining of this post... at which ICC boss do you think stamina will be the main stat on HC? Maybe at lady Deathwhisper if you tank the side with 2 magical adds? maybe... but we have a bear tank for that.
Sidenote: I do have H:JV... but it belongs to the HP tanking set that I never find myself equipping in ICC atm.

Have you done Festergut yet? It's a massive EH fight. The fact that you can gear any which way you want in easymode does not mean that EH fights went away.

It is true that with TOGC25 gear I was over expertise softcap all time... well last night, with new ICC gear (got Marrowgar's pants) and with the badge chest i barely made it to 26 expertise (10 exp. glyph included).
Yes, you do trade avoidance but you trade it for mitigation (you get hit more often for less dmg). Different gear for different fights. See begining of post where ya need armor atm... maybe other future bosses also.
Also... it's not few percentage avoidance due to diminishing returns.
And it's not "little bit EH"... because it's shitloads of armor that will make those spikes smaller and healers happier.

Yes, it is. I plugged your own toon into both chardev and rawr. Compared to something shitty like Breastplate of the White Knight, you gain roughly 0.5% physical damage reduction from armor for a trade of 1.5% avoidance. Compared to a well itemized 264, the contrast only gets worse.

I don't get the "your spec needs work". You suggest I need to drop mana regen+survivability for additional threat/more tank DPS?
If yes... remember you are there to tank and AFAIK paladins never have threat issues. I know I don't.

Divinity doesn't add survivability. A second point of SA is worthless because you'll be at full mana all the time in a raid without it. 1/2 SA + DP + Sanc is already overkill for mana return in raids.

Well... I'm the guild 3rd tank so in fights with 2 tanks I dps

With your... shall we call them unique approaches to gearing. I have to say this is the only part of your post I don't find entirely surprising.

[gamerguy19876]

Def get cloak then trink then go for tier ;D