Rogue Threat

[Sesshou]

I was wondering if there was a different spec (something other than the 20/51/0 combat dps spec) that would put out more threat(can't be mut though since my daggers are 245/258 vs my 264/264 sword/axe so I doubt it would be more for me specifically).

For example, would taking riposte or unfair advantage be worth it? I'm not sure if those would actually be a dps gain (thus threat gain) since I would have to drop dps talents to get them. My threat is plenty high for scrubs in random heroics, but if one of our raiders is there (esp if its something where I need to be crit immune) they can pull off easily if they arent careful.

[paine4000]

I was wondering if there was a different spec (something other than the 20/51/0 combat dps spec) that would put out more threat(can't be mut though since my daggers are 245/258 vs my 264/264 sword/axe so I doubt it would be more for me specifically).

For example, would taking riposte or unfair advantage be worth it? I'm not sure if those would actually be a dps gain (thus threat gain) since I would have to drop dps talents to get them. My threat is plenty high for scrubs in random heroics, but if one of our raiders is there (esp if its something where I need to be crit immune) they can pull off easily if they arent careful.

0/10 you are horrible at this.

[Sesshou]

Go away, Im not trolling. I tank random heroics a fair amount since our guild has a low number of tank alts and a much higher number if healing alts. Last week the raid was Jaraxus and I tanked him on 10 normal monday night since no guild tanks were unsaved (just him though, not the adds).

If you can't tank heroics (excluding ICC ones) then you are either poorly geared, bad, or only know bad healers.

Edit: I would check a spread sheet if I could, but those things arent modeled as in "anything that matters" you arent expected to be tanking meaning they are useless.

[d34thangel]

Ah, another tanker, sweet i thaught i was alone :P

I've found just raw and avoidence works then best, i haven't noticed any threat changes, Unfair advantage i honestly think is a nobrainer if your worried about threat and can get that far down in combat

[Voij]

Go away, Im not trolling. I tank random heroics a fair amount since our guild has a low number of tank alts and a much higher number if healing alts. Last week the raid was Jaraxus and I tanked him on 10 normal monday night since no guild tanks were unsaved (just him though, not the adds).

If you can't tank heroics (excluding ICC ones) then you are either poorly geared, bad, or only know bad healers.

Edit: I would check a spread sheet if I could, but those things arent modeled as in "anything that matters" you arent expected to be tanking meaning they are useless.

Wait, what? Jaraxxus? The guy who oneshots you? O.o

I call shenanigans.

[paine4000]

Ah, another tanker, sweet i thaught i was alone :P

I've found just raw and avoidence works then best, i haven't noticed any threat changes, Unfair advantage i honestly think is a nobrainer if your worried about threat and can get that far down in combat

6/10. A little better but I already knew this was a Troll thread. Next time just start your own.

[Sesshou]

Wait, what? Jaraxxus? The guy who oneshots you? O.o

I call shenanigans.

Welcome scrub, and go away. He 1 shot you? You either have hardly any hit points, or you let him get stacks of the debuff. He hits me for ~24k, but guess what I had 32k when I tanked him, oh wait that means I wont die in 1 hit. I was also crit immune, so there was no way a crit would 1 shot me either. The fireball doesnt hit for 32k either, but he didnt nail me with any so that doesnt matter.

I think I convinced some guildies to try to heal me through beasts again, problem is last time my threat was bad and when the jormunger threat wiped, the dps pulled agro 1 by 1 and all died. If I cant lead in with all my cd's, the rogue threat reduction, and having to wear non optimal dps pieces to crit immune, the dps can hardly do dps at all.

Edit: I guess if we do it this week I should see if someone can fraps it... Raid quest isnt ToC this week though... I dont see why you guys say its not possible. 32khp buffed, ~40% dodge unbuffed, 5.2% parry unbuffed, boss's 5% miss chance gives me ~50% avoidance.

[Voij]

Welcome scrub, and go away. He 1 shot you? You either have hardly any hit points, or you let him get stacks of the debuff. He hits me for ~24k, but guess what I had 32k when I tanked him, oh wait that means I wont die in 1 hit. I was also crit immune, so there was no way a crit would 1 shot me either. The fireball doesnt hit for 32k either, but he didnt nail me with any so that doesnt matter.

I think I convinced some guildies to try to heal me through beasts again, problem is last time my threat was bad and when the jormunger threat wiped, the dps pulled agro 1 by 1 and all died. If I cant lead in with all my cd's, the rogue threat reduction, and having to wear non optimal dps pieces to crit immune, the dps can hardly do dps at all.

Edit: I guess if we do it this week I should see if someone can fraps it... Raid quest isnt ToC this week though... I dont see why you guys say its not possible. 32khp buffed, ~40% dodge unbuffed, 5.2% parry unbuffed, boss's 5% miss chance gives me ~50% avoidance.

It's rather that we were/are surprised that it's possible... sounds quite unbelievable, but if you say so. *shrug*

Oh, and a bad reason to call me a scrub.
1.: If at all, then you're the scrub for coming here, saying how great you tank that stuff and then asking some stupid questions like "how can I increase my threat?" Simple answer, do more damage. There's no other way for Rogues. [How you deal that damage should be pretty obvious.]
2.: I never tried to tank him, thus was never critimmune, never had HP-equip, never specced into avoidance-talents. So yeah, I was pretty much oneshotted if we wiped. [Never wiped on 10mans normal, though... don't actually run that anymore, either.]

[paine4000]

It's rather that we were/are surprised that it's possible... sounds quite unbelievable, but if you say so. *shrug*

Oh, and a bad reason to call me a scrub.
1.: If at all, then you're the scrub for coming here, saying how great you tank that stuff and then asking some stupid questions like "how can I increase my threat?" Simple answer, do more damage. There's no other way for Rogues. [How you deal that damage should be pretty obvious.]
2.: I never tried to tank him, thus was never critimmune, never had HP-equip, never specced into avoidance-talents. So yeah, I was pretty much oneshotted if we wiped. [Never wiped on 10mans normal, though... don't actually run that anymore, either.]

No I'm pretty sure this guy's a Troll,

Welcome to Mmo-champion.com/class-rogue, please feel free to ask any serious questions pertaining your class. We must ask that you please not fee the Trolls as they do Berserk. :P

[Sesshou]

Oh, and a bad reason to call me a scrub.
1.: If at all, then you're the scrub for coming here, saying how great you tank that stuff and then asking some stupid questions like "how can I increase my threat?" Simple answer, do more damage. There's no other way for Rogues. [How you deal that damage should be pretty obvious.]
2.: I never tried to tank him, thus was never critimmune, never had HP-equip, never specced into avoidance-talents. So yeah, I was pretty much oneshotted if we wiped. [Never wiped on 10mans normal, though... don't actually run that anymore, either.]

Um I called you a scrub because you are assuming things to be true with no basis for doing so, and also you failed to read my posts apparently. I ALREADY said that more damage= more threat. What I dont know, is if those talents will increase my damage or not because they are not modeled in any spread sheet that I have ever seen.

Also you say you "never wiped on 10mans normal" and also "pretty much oneshoted if we wiped" from that I think you are saying you have never actually been hit by 10 Jaraxus, and therefore have no basis for anything you have said previously about a rogue can't tank him becuase he hits too hard.

Btw, from my initial post:

I'm not sure if those would actually be a dps gain (thus threat gain)

So yes I understand how that part works quite well thanks.

Edit: So back to my question, are there non standard talents I should take so that I put out more dps (thus threat) while tanking? And if I should take say unfair advantage and/or riposte, what should I drop for them?

And honestly I dont see why this is hard to believe. A rogue tanked Mother Shaz in BT when that was still high end raid content. 10ToC is a 10 man, incredibly easy, and not top tier, doesnt even come close to tanking a BT raid boss.

[paine4000]

Yeah, probably going to feed the Troll. At the same time I would love to see a Rogue tank.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eZ0...rZxMcdIo0z:dqj

I would think this would be optimal spec to play. Hemo just because I like it =)

[Voij]

Um I called you a scrub because you are assuming things to be true with no basis for doing so, and also you failed to read my posts apparently. I ALREADY said that more damage= more threat. What I dont know, is if those talents will increase my damage or not because they are not modeled in any spread sheet that I have ever seen.

Also you say you "never wiped on 10mans normal" and also "pretty much oneshoted if we wiped" from that I think you are saying you have never actually been hit by 10 Jaraxus, and therefore have no basis for anything you have said previously about a rogue can't tank him becuase he hits too hard.

Btw, from my initial post:
So yes I understand how that part works quite well thanks.

You're overinterpreting something there. If I was hit by a raidboss, I was dead. Hence I thought that that's what happens to all Rogues.
Also, when I said "oneshot" I didn't mean that it's always a direct Oneshot, no other thing ever possible and really exactly one hit, you were at 100% HP, had a Shield on you, had PS, etc.
I meant that you simply drop dead, whether you haven't been at 100%, haven't had a shield on you, were crit, whatever. I couldn't imagine someone doing that, hence I said that.

About the talents: It's easy to model them, should be for you aswell.
Take Unfair Advantage as an example. If you have a 50% dodge chance, the boss has a 2sec attack timer[Don't know about the attackspeed, look it up yourself if you want], then just see for how much your UA hits on average and you've found out how much dps you do with it.

Really, it's as simple as calculating trinkets, no clue why others think it's so hard... [Some other talents might be, but we honestly don't have that many that help with tanking.]


Then again, has to be a Troll after all. No Sesshou in the armory with decent equip.
Furthermore, you simply can't/won't tank Random Heroics since you're queued as DD and I seriously doubt any person in their right mind would prefer you to an actual tank. [Especially when you're acting ingame as you do here.]

And yeah, dps shouldn't have a problem with pulling off of him. I mean, he says he has 264 weapons, his guildmembers have a brain but would still pull off of him and he wouldn't be able to keep aggro off of a worm.
Yeah... Rogue-tank and healers carrying a bunch of morons, I can see it already. O-o

[Sesshou]

If you wanted an armory, all you had to do was ask You didnt find my rogue under Sesshou because that was his BC name, I have since server and faction transfered to alliance. Though before you laugh about my gems, on the current ss the EP for agi is 2 for me.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ull&n=Zetsubou

I agree that if I knew the boss's swing speed then the math for UF would be easy. Do you know a place where I can find that? But that alone wont be entirely accurate because his parry's will effect his swings, and seeing as how I attack really fast there is bound to be a large amount of those.

What about riposte?

And you are not exactly correct about the heroic thing. Yes, I can only Q up for dps, but you can easily get around that. For example, one time we had our ele shaman Q up as healer, and our resto druid Q up as tank. The game does not actually check spec or gear when allowing you to pick a role, only class. But basically, as long as I q up with a druid, paladin, warrior, or dk from my guild that picks tank, I get insta Q and I tank. Granted I only tried having a pug healer heal me through it once, but he managed.

And as to preferring me, actually some of them do. I raided on a disc priest till faction transfer was up, I dont know if you have much healing experience, but do you have any idea how boring it is to heal a geared the crap out tank through a heroic? I would heal the whole instance jumping in circles hitting holy nova because I was so bored. Now for Jaraxus, it was mostly a last minute raid quest group and we were curious if it was possible.

You wonder how I can have gear yet my guildies dont watch their agro? Well for 1, this was like 2am and there was definitely drinking going on. And for 2, our dps doesnt like to watch agro... if we wiped to something on 'farm' odds are about 50% that a dps pulled agro because one of our lower threat tanks was tanking.

Edit: Maybe my interpretation of your post was wrong, but I read it as you never wiped on 10 normal and you only get hit by Jaraxus as you are wiping, so you were never hit by 10 jaraxus but some other difficulty one (which I would agree probably could 1 shot me).

Also you mention my attitude, well I got a little annoyed that I posted a serious question and here come people posting useless replies without making any effort to answer the question and calling me a troll. If the replied arent showing me any respect, you can guarantee I won't be nice in mine either.

[Javanface]

And honestly I dont see why this is hard to believe. A rogue tanked Mother Shaz in BT when that was still high end raid content. 10ToC is a 10 man, incredibly easy, and not top tier, doesnt even come close to tanking a BT raid boss.

A rogue tanked Mother Shahraz in BT by making sure he/she couldn't get hit by her melee. As this is no longer possible due to diminishing returns on dodge, Rogue tanking is done for in any serious manner. I've healed my guildie's alt ret pala through a bunch of heroics on my alt resto shaman, and granted it works and it is fun, but it sort of ends there. If anything starts hitting hard or we pull too much it all turns to shit rather quickly. Especially if he struggles for aggro.
I can also believe you could possibly tank Jaraxxus on 10man without getting one-shot because that's the one boss since naxx that hits like a pussy as long as his nether power buff isn't on him and you don't let his fireball through. But then again it sort of ends there because what else would you tank? Twins? Anub? They've traded their inflatable hammers in for real ones unlike mr eredar lord of the burning legion.

I'm all for pushing our boundaries and a few weeks before Gaeowyn managed Mother (and I even heard of him/her), I was working on a gear set myself to see if I could reach the avoidance cap. Wasn't quite possible with the gear available to me then and obviously a few weeks later someone managed to do what I was planning to do, so there was little point in doing it anymore. However, rogues tanking anything other than what you've presumably done already seems like more of a struggle than it's worth.

[d34thangel]

Rogue tanking isn't about really a strugle, i have fun with it, i tank heroics with guildies, i'm planning on being able to tank ToC10 the entire thing, i know i can do it with clever timing of Fient, and having 33k hp while uncritable, i myself was worried about the threat issues i would have, however, have a rogue in the group with 9 second trix and i think it would be fine.. Rogue tanking is all about saying to your guildies, HEY LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! XD

[Sesshou]

Javan, you are right in that dr on dodge (and sunwell radiance in icecrown) means a rogue won't be tanking anything meaningful in progression content. I didn't say I was planning on doing that either.

I do disagree about other 10 toc bosses, while I wouldnt be able to single tank, I think it would be possible to function as the second tank in a basically standard 2 tank strat on beasts and twins. I don't think I could MT anub though because of the ice block move he used which would prevent me from dodging which would probably kill me.

So, unless anyone else has some thread hijacking to do, does anyone know where I could find info on swing timers for bosses, since as pointed out before that is probably the best way to gauge a dps/threat gain from UA? Or anything related to riposte being a dps gain?

[enigmaran]

Greetings from the Druid forums and as one of the main tanks in Sesshou's guild.

I can vouch for him actually rogue tanking jaraxxus because I was in that group on my shadowpriest - karanightly on the laughing skull server. (for my druid see my name as a poster on here)

We were bored and thought it would be fun to see if rogue tanking was possible - (and honestly - sess hasn't stopped wanting to tank since his old horde guild wouldn't let him and he rerolled into my server and guild. (zetsubou is his rogue's name).

i can assure you he is not trolling, and is posting a serious question. I don't know much about rogue mechanics, so any productive discussion would be appreciated.

I know that rogue tanking is unconventional and certainly has no place in progression raids due to DR on dodge and sunwell radiance, i mean chill of the throne.

However, it does provide an entertaining way to experience the encounters when you outgear them and the healers can handle the incoming damage. Finally, that short raid was quite a bit of fun and I encourage well geared rogues to try it out sometime if your guild is up for supporting it.

[paine4000]

Greetings from the Druid forums and as one of the main tanks in Sesshou's guild.

I can vouch for him actually rogue tanking jaraxxus because I was in that group on my shadowpriest - karanightly on the laughing skull server. (for my druid see my name as a poster on here)

We were bored and thought it would be fun to see if rogue tanking was possible - (and honestly - sess hasn't stopped wanting to tank since his old horde guild wouldn't let him and he rerolled into my server and guild. (zetsubou is his rogue's name).

i can assure you he is not trolling, and is posting a serious question. I don't know much about rogue mechanics, so any productive discussion would be appreciated.

I know that rogue tanking is unconventional and certainly has no place in progression raids due to DR on dodge and sunwell radiance, i mean chill of the throne.

However, it does provide an entertaining way to experience the encounters when you outgear them and the healers can handle the incoming damage. Finally, that short raid was quite a bit of fun and I encourage well geared rogues to try it out sometime if your guild is up for supporting it.

You could have just typed "Bump"

[Quackerano]

Rogue tanking isn't about really a strugle, i have fun with it, i tank heroics with guildies, i'm planning on being able to tank ToC10 the entire thing, i know i can do it with clever timing of Feint, and having 33k hp while uncritable, i myself was worried about the threat issues i would have, however, have a rogue in the group with 9 second trix and i think it would be fine.. Rogue tanking is all about saying to your guildies, HEY LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! XD

Careful with feint...if threat is your issue, then reducing it probably wouldn't be a good idea...

[Voij]

Careful with feint...if threat is your issue, then reducing it probably wouldn't be a good idea...

Feint doesn't help as a threat reduce since BC launched.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Feint

Take a look, it reduces our threat by 2162 on level 80.

Now I don't know about you, but in a good raid setting for a Rogue Tank you're probably gonna have some classes to buff his damage, Enhancer, Offwarrior, Paladin, etc.

So even as a Tank I think he'd probably reach about 5-6k dps. Using Feint once for an AE-move to reduce incoming damage is seriously no problem at all.

[If in doubt, look at your threatmeter next time you do Jaraxxus or anything in 10s/25s, after about half of the fight the tank usually has about 1-2 Mio. threat.]