Is Blizz really Biasd towards rogue's?

[Nyky]

What about warlocks? With an Unholy DK in the raid, best thing a warlock can bring you (most of them being Aff or destro) a soulstone and healthstone.

Hutners- 10% more AP is not - 2000 DPS- ontop of that, most hunters are currently rolling survival due to the better mana efficiency (bad spelling) so they don't bring the Arura...

Rogies don't have anything in any spec (if I don't count Trick of the Trade). They can't help you to survive any Aoe, or increase someones damage. They are in raids Only on his own with buffs from others ! They know JUST dps.

Why ppl are getting Rogues to Raids now ? If it isn't their DPS ...

[Jmcduffie]

rogue is the only pure dps class absolutely restricted to melee, and wears paper thin armor. it kind of figures that on standstill, no-switch fights they're going to obliterate the DPS of anyone else.

the problem is on switch fights...they might not be#1 but but they are #4...With all the other mele stuck at 10,11,12 how is that going to be a Balanced class. They are no longer bringing the player but the class. Heck get a Marks hunter ele shaman and a Feral Tank and stock up on rogue mele if you want to look at it that way...sounds fair to me...

[dotsown]

Dks - Horn
Warriors - Scount
Druid, Priest, Mages, Paladins - Buffs
Hunter - Aura
Shaman - Totems
Warlock - Pet buffs

Rogue - Whooot ? Nothing !

All classes need to be "balanced" in raids - it means they have to help whole Raid. Other classes help with buffs, totems and so on - it increase damage/heal to everyone. If Rogue will be on same dps level then Shaman is (for example) - Who will get Rogue to raid ? Nobody, becasue Shamans totems, Bloodlust and so on and so on.

Rogue need to be higher then others a bit - they need to chance to go to Raid !

rogues bring tons to the raid tricks of the trade the best threat spell in the game (imho) savage combat debuff expose armor 3% crit debuff wound poison and besides classes arnt balanced around the buffs they bring there balanced around pure or hybrid nothing else if your worried about your raid spot L2P i was a rogue main for a year and its not a very hard class at all rogues doing 3k dps more then the next highest is quite absurd

[Athariel]

Hahahahahaha.....*wipes-tears-of-laughter-away*.....hahahhahahaa.....

I am sorry....hahahaa... I just can't stop laughing.

So what you say is basically the following:
Pressing Button 1.
Waiting for Energy.
Pressing Button 2.
Every 60 seconeds pressing Button 3.
Rince and Reapet.

I'm not saying it is hard, but you kind of lost the whole thing right there. Rogue DPS aren't about pushing button 1, then button 2 and then button 3 or whatever. It is about decisions. Would you know if you should use Envenom at 3 or 4+ combopoints when the Envenom buff just ran out and your trinket and berskerker procs are running out in 1 sec? Would the extra damage gained from the extra AP overcome the damage lost by using a lower number of combopoints and a reduced duration of the Envenom buff? Should you just spam envenom once you have enough energy, or maximize the uptime of the envenom buff?

Those kinds of decisions are the thing that differ good rogues from bad ones. Now that doesn't mean it's much harder, but it allocates more of your focus on procs, buffs etc instead of having most of your focus on whatever the encounter throw at you.

[Jmcduffie]

Rogies don't have anything in any spec (if I don't count Trick of the Trade). They can't help you to survive any Aoe, or increase someones damage. They are in raids Only on his own with buffs from others ! They know JUST dps.

Why ppl are getting Rogues to Raids now ? If it isn't their DPS ...

And there would be nothing wrong with that if they Did not consistantly dominate every meter. You are eliminating other "mele" classes by allowing one to Greatly surpass the others. So what if they can't buff the raid, why should they do signifigantly better w/ an easier rotation that people who DO bring benifits to the raids. If a rogue was only topping dmg meters by a few hundred DPS I wouldn't be complaining, but they are THE HIGHEST DPS in the game. You want to talk about fair...Why would you want to roll any other class? You're just not going to do as well as a rogue? Blizz made it bring the class not the player by giving rogues THIS much power

[marv]

rogue is the only pure dps class absolutely restricted to melee, and wears paper thin armor. it kind of figures that on standstill, no-switch fights they're going to obliterate the DPS of anyone else.

can you tell me exactly whats the relation between being a melee or wearing leather and deserving to be the top dps by far? Melees and casters have different advantages and disadvantages, it's not like playing melee is any harder than playing a caster and I haven't yet seen any mail or plate dpser tanked or did anything else but dpsing in a raid.

And stop being ignorant about raid buffs, hunters aura is NEVER needed for a raid and it gets overwritten by enh./blood ap buffs, warlock buffs can be replaced by unholy, most of the buffs that a dpser brings can be replaced by another class. It's just the same as rogue buffs can be replaced by a warrior.

[Ghrim]

Rogies don't have anything in any spec (if I don't count Trick of the Trade). They can't help you to survive any Aoe, or increase someones damage. They are in raids Only on his own with buffs from others ! They know JUST dps.

Why ppl are getting Rogues to Raids now ? If it isn't their DPS ...

Oh you mean, they don't have Master Posioner increasing the crit chance of the raid by 3%?
And they don't have Savage Combat increasing physical damage of the raid by 4%?
Or increasing the Damage of another physical dps by effectively 5% with 2pT10 (and yes I'm counting it, as it is an buff rogues bring)

[Jmcduffie]

What it comes down to is people seem to be saying that as longas you have one of every otherclass stack rogues that way you can maximize your raid DPS...Is that ring the player or bring the class? If you have 2 mages why bring a 3rd when you can bring a rogue who can do 1000 more DPS...just becuase he's a rogue!!!

[talitu]

Okay I think everyone will agree with me here for the most part rogue's always seem to be in the top 5 on the damage meters and always seem to be in the top arena teams. Are they REALLY that overpowered? Reading some threats on http://elitistjerks.com/
I noticed this link

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/dps/

Now I don't know about other people's opinions but I THOUGHT blizzard was trying to balance the classes not to make one almost expenetuallybetter to every other class. I keep seeing a plethera of nerfs for DK's Pally's Druid's Warlock's but nothing substantial to rogues. I am not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for one of those classes to become an elite DPS class but there is little varriation on that page. Why do we keep seeing other classes get nerfed when to it seems like one class; more or less one spec is dominating not only the PvP world but the PvE world!!!

they gave up basically. its what you would call an acknowledged broken system now. when they released LK and accidentally put in a class that could kill rogues as easily as they kill the rest arena participation fell by 60% and the sheer volume of rogue tears broke the internet, so blizz back tracked continued giving rogues gladiator title and weapons for reaching level 4 and nerfered any resistance into the ground.

[ComputerNerd]

Tricks of the Trade, seems that people forget about that one not being only a threat transfer - effectively a misdirect it also increases damage output of the target.
Yes I agree they do have little else in group utility with the lack of CC requirement in the game, but that is still a powerful ability and cannot really see any situations where that does not have use, unlike the frequently brought up warlocks, of whom most of their buffs will be depandant on spec, and the benefit of which may well vary based on the group makeup.
Blood Pact - you see imp, or should see it only in destro, so in affliction you get the fel intelligence buff which simply is not half as attractive and not at all to melee, and demonic pact in the demonology tree for extra spellpower is only good in a heavy caster group since it is a dps loss for the individual warlock compared to the other two specs, and requires a pet friendly fight.
Curse of Elements, there are others classes/specs capable of bringing that buff along and recklessness - I cannot remember the last time I was asked for that, if ever and not for weakness for a very long time.
I agree that in pvp rogues are rather effective against anything but a damage sponge/anti-melee which unfortunatly warlocks are neither.
They may have a lack of continuous or passive buffs, but then again so can many other classes if you take the time to look at specific specs or situations.

[Iteken]

So you are saying that, on a fight where class A stands still and do nothing but dps a boss, they do more damage than class B which needs to run around, target switch, kite and control adds.

This is a shocking and ground breaking discovery we need to:
1. Alert the Media
2. Subscribe to your weekly Newsletter for further updates.

[Leios the Worstcase]

I'd like to introduce you to the feral druid. They have to manage energy and combo points while having a 11 button rotation.

Because energy and combo points are hard... Do I have energy? No, wait 2 seconds and repeat question. Yes, Go on. Do I have 4+ combo points? Envenom. If not, Mutilate.
I could take it further and say you should pool energy if you have 4+ combo points and your envenom buff is still up, but ummm...That's as far as I could take it.

Hard choices. Micromanagement to the extreme. I don't know how rogues make it all the way through BOTH of those questions.

True I forgot about you Frals, my respect truly goes out to you, and I mean it.

But still there is a Huge diference in DMG from a "bad" Muti Roge to a "good" Muti Roge, and people saying otherwise are in my opinon just beeing but hurt because yes even a Bad Rogue can tear you apart in DMG using just 2 Buttons.

I won't say other classes tkae less skill but something with a System such a Energy will alway take more awarenes that Mana (Evo, Life Tap or anything else if it gets "low", Problem solved), watching for Procs takes skill no question. Handeling Debuffs like Alf Locks and SPs takes skill a lot of it, I agree.

But as I said before, beeing a exelent Roge takes a shitload of awareness, planing and reaction but if you get it you can pull more than 1K extra DPS compared to someone simply doing 4+ Envenom with a litte energy pooling.

And as a litte Chery on top Equipment is a bitch with balancing Expertise, Hast, AP, Aggi and Crit cap. Shipping around Arm Pen Equip it takes Quite a bit of reading into, and definantly a lot more than most Caster classes.

[Jmcduffie]

So you are saying that, on a fight where class A stands still and do nothing but dps a boss, they do more damage than class B which needs to run around, target switch, kite and control adds.

This is a shocking and ground breaking discovery we need to:
1. Alert the Media
2. Subscribe to your weekly Newsletter for further updates.

I'm sorry are we talking about ICC or are we talking about BWL????

[Ghrim]

I'm not saying it is hard, but you kind of lost the whole thing right there. Rogue DPS aren't about pushing button 1, then button 2 and then button 3 or whatever. It is about decisions. Would you know if you should use Envenom at 3 or 4+ combopoints when the Envenom buff just ran out and your trinket and berskerker procs are running out in 1 sec? Would the extra damage gained from the extra AP overcome the damage lost by using a lower number of combopoints and a reduced duration of the Envenom buff? Should you just spam envenom once you have enough energy, or maximize the uptime of the envenom buff?

Those kinds of decisions are the thing that differ good rogues from bad ones. Now that doesn't mean it's much harder, but it allocates more of your focus on procs, buffs etc instead of having most of your focus on whatever the encounter throw at you.

Those are decisions EVERY SINGLE CLASS in the game has to make. Just that Rogues have the easiest rotation surrounding it. Already brought cats into the game: They also have proccs, but they still have to manage a by far more complex rotation around it. DKs - often called as the faceroll class - have the same procs and even more. A well equipped DK has to watch for 5 (!) proccs from equip to maximize DPS, furthermore if he messes up his rotation he has to live with a loss of ~20% damage for 20s if his diseases fall off, etc. A Moonkin has to decide in splitseconds what he wants to do befor, during or after an eclipse procc. Hell, even Warlocks are way harder to play.

Just because you as a rogue have the incredible task to manage a 2 button rotation AND do all the things every other class also does whilst managing far more complex rotations or prio systems doesn't mean it is hard to play a rogue. It only tells us that it is EASIER to play a Muti rogue than any other class.

[dotsown]

can you tell me exactly whats the relation between being a melee or wearing plate and deserving to be the top dps by far? Melees and casters have different advantages and disadvantages, it's not like playing melee is any harder that playing a caster and I haven't yet seen any mail or plate dpser tanked or did anything else but dpsing in a raid.

And stop being ignorant about raid buffs, hunters aura is NEVER needed for a raid and it gets overwritten by enh./blood ap buffs, warlock buffs can be replaced by unholy, most of the buffs that a dpser brings can be replaced by another class. It's just the same as rogue buffs can be replaced by a warrior.

well said this isnt pvp rogues dont understand for some reason armor means jack buffs are overwritten so classes arnt balanced around that and rogue rotation is extremely easy pooling energy isnt hard not clipping envenom buff is not hard its a two button wonder not that any other rotation is hard either but i hate how alot of you rogues try to defend it when someone says your spec is easy thats because it is compared to the other specs obviously

[B@ndit]

Melees and casters have different advantages and disadvantages, it's not like playing melee is any harder than playing a caster and I haven't yet seen any mail or plate dpser tanked or did anything else but dpsing in a raid.

example :
yesterday, lady deathwhisper p2. One tank die. Shit, how the other tank is gonna lose his aggro debuff.

Simple, a DK dps taunted Deathwhisper and kept the aggro just the amount of time needed for the tank to lose the debuff. Then Deathwhisper is going down.

Give me (a rogue) the ability to do such things (like saving a raid), and i'd be glad to lose 2k dps.

[Jmcduffie]

True I forgot about you Frals, my respect truly goes out to you, and I mean it.

But still there is a Huge diference in DMG from a "bad" Muti Roge to a "good" Muti Roge, and people saying otherwise are in my opinon just beeing but hurt because yes even a Bad Rogue can tear you apart in DMG using just 2 Buttons.

I won't say other classes tkae less skill but something with a System such a Energy will alway take more awarenes that Mana (Evo, Life Tap or anything else if it gets "low", Problem solved), watching for Procs takes skill no question. Handeling Debuffs like Alf Locks and SPs takes skill a lot of it, I agree.

But as I said before, beeing a exelent Roge takes a shitload of awareness, planing and reaction but if you get it you can pull more than 1K extra DPS compared to someone simply doing 4+ Envenom with a litte energy pooling.

And as a litte Chery on top Equipment is a bitch with balancing Expertise, Hast, AP, Aggi and Crit cap. Shipping around Arm Pen Equip it takes Quite a bit of reading into, and definantly a lot more than most Caster classes.

Very well put. But if a Mage is played poorly even as Arcane their DPS is siggnifagantly lower thatn everyone else's If a rogue is played poorly, they can still look like a moderatly skilled player. If a rogue is played evtremely well Most fights people don't have a chance to match their DPS. It's becoming bring the class not the player for them. An extremely skilled mage has to get lucky crits to match a good rogues DPS. Rogue's currently I would say are the laughing stock of PvE skill to do fairly high dmg. And they are probaly one of the least "overall" skill needed to maximize PvE potential. PvP rogue's besides a healer's would be the hardest to master skill wise due to being squishy and once out of colldowns bcome reliant on others mistakes further...

[Ghrim]

But still there is a Huge diference in DMG from a "bad" Muti Roge to a "good" Muti Roge, and people saying otherwise are in my opinon just beeing but hurt because yes even a Bad Rogue can tear you apart in DMG using just 2 Buttons.

But still there is a Huge diference in DMG from a "bad" Muti Roge to a "good" Muti Roge,

because yes even a Bad Rogue can tear you apart in DMG using just 2 Buttons.

Ok not only are you contradicting yourself in the same sentence but you are also admitting that even the most stupid rogue out there can outdps any other class by just standing there and pressing 2 buttons.

Congratulations, good sir, you finally realized the truth.

[dotsown]

So you are saying that, on a fight where class A stands still and do nothing but dps a boss, they do more damage than class B which needs to run around, target switch, kite and control adds.

This is a shocking and ground breaking discovery we need to:
1. Alert the Media
2. Subscribe to your weekly Newsletter for further updates.

do you really think there hasnt been a single mage hunter warlock nvr switch to an add on saurfang on the worldoflogs top 200 you really think every single one of them switches to adds? not a single one wanted to test how high they would go or let his guildys kill the adds instead? the people that make the top while switching to adds are awesome but im sure theres atleast some people that never switched for whatever reason (tunnelvision or trying to make the top) doesnt even have to be saurfang could be lady death or any fight with adds

[bloodmoon]

Okay I think everyone will agree with me here for the most part rogue's always seem to be in the top 5 on the damage meters and always seem to be in the top arena teams. Are they REALLY that overpowered? Reading some threats on http://elitistjerks.com/
I noticed this link

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Icecrown_Citadel/dps/

Now I don't know about other people's opinions but I THOUGHT blizzard was trying to balance the classes not to make one almost expenetuallybetter to every other class. I keep seeing a plethera of nerfs for DK's Pally's Druid's Warlock's but nothing substantial to rogues. I am not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for one of those classes to become an elite DPS class but there is little varriation on that page. Why do we keep seeing other classes get nerfed when to it seems like one class; more or less one spec is dominating not only the PvP world but the PvE world!!!

If you check same sheets for 3.2 you will see same picture with MAGES not rogues.

QQ more

It was poison change that prevent from weapon swapping that moved rogues little bit ahead and Blizz said rogues deserved that buff long time.

If you think rogues are so good etc. - play it.