Why take an enhance instead of a Frost DK?

[Hedstone]

Frost DK brings WF, and a marks hunter brings 10% AP. Now I heart my shaman and his is relatively well geared/played (gs 5400ish) - but in top tier guilds I notice that enh dps is substantially below the "primary dps" roles, that there has been discussion within more than one guild about replacing that slot should their enh fall over dead/quit etc. So really the pondering question is do other two classes filling those buffs, even though their spec is not optimal, still have the potential to do more dps than the enh shm?

[Skollvaldr]

any specc can be replaced by a combination of others.

but just to name a few things enhancers bring outside of what you mentioned:

- lust/hero obviously
- imp agi/str totem (frost dk doen't have that)

also quite usefull for certain encounters:

- offhealing/cleansing in yogg-brain room
- cleansing hots/buffs on faction champs
- healing stream for anub 25 hard

im sure there is more to come in icc.

bottom line: marginally sub par dps, but wide variety of utility that a dk doesn't bring.

[Flemshady]

I might be mistaken given my lack of interest for the deathknight class and my luxury as a gm to always somehow get my own enhancement shaman into raids. But I was under the impression that Enhancing Totems was a shaman unique buff and trumps Horn of Winter. Also, Trial of the Grand Crusader was very AOE Friendly and as such greatly favours DK's to be Unholy specced, making us the only one bringing the haste. And ofcourse, Heroism until further drumming.

Also what might have misguided you is that because of the AoE Nature of these encounters DK's very often come out on top while Shaman comes out below the top10. However, in Single target DPS, an equally geared endgame Shaman should beat the DK.


I see the above poster already hit the nail on several of the same points as me

[Hedstone]

Good points but for thought:

Imp totems is still relatively quite close to what horn of winter gives - I can't recall the exact numbers but it's a slim margin.

Heroism: The ele/resto can cover that just fine.

Single target DPS: Equally geared, DK's actually have the ability to do more fights depending on the time marks (CD's) - You might be biased since let's face it, it's easier to find good enhance players while you can swing a dead cat and hit 84024 bad DK's.

I touched briefly on this, but while UH for DK's is relatively superior DPS frost is in no way poor dps - especially when the DK gets some arpen on their gear (not socketed for it of course just slotted).

Healing stream for anub is meh, enh does not have enough SP/talents for it to keep the party up vs. resto/ele.

Remember, I'm not trying to disuade anyone but looking at this from a discussion point of view. Thanks for the responses so far!

[Deleted]

For buffs: Allows your Frost DKs to spec Unholy, or Blood. Which are better DPS.
For DPS: Your Enhancement Shaman does more DPS than your Frost DK, and is taken therefore.

Also Enh Shaman "Horn of Winter" is 15% better.

[Omarian]

Ok this is why enhancement shaman instead of frost DK:
1. Totem is better than horn of winter
2. Like 1% of the DK's around are normal people
3. If you are an enhancement shaman AND you know how to play it, you will totaly own the shit out of frost dk's
4. Me being in a endgame raiding guild having any kind of dps in it, playing myself enhancement shaman, and we don't have any frost dk's who top raid dps, sometimes a blood dk reaches top 5.

[thrizie]

Frost DK damage is piss poor compared to unholy or blood, frost DKs also have to take a dps loss to rebuff horn since their rotation is tight.

Short answer to topic question: because it's better.

[Majika]

Good points but for thought:

Imp totems is still relatively quite close to what horn of winter gives - I can't recall the exact numbers but it's a slim margin.

Heroism: The ele/resto can cover that just fine.

Single target DPS: Equally geared, DK's actually have the ability to do more fights depending on the time marks (CD's) - You might be biased since let's face it, it's easier to find good enhance players while you can swing a dead cat and hit 84024 bad DK's.

I touched briefly on this, but while UH for DK's is relatively superior DPS frost is in no way poor dps - especially when the DK gets some arpen on their gear (not socketed for it of course just slotted).

Healing stream for anub is meh, enh does not have enough SP/talents for it to keep the party up vs. resto/ele.

Remember, I'm not trying to disuade anyone but looking at this from a discussion point of view. Thanks for the responses so far!

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but I'm not sure what answer you are looking for. People have already told you what the advantages of enhancement shaman are over frost dks. Whether or not you consider those to be significant advantages is another matter.

First of all, the original premise, that frost dks do more damage than enhancement shamans in top guilds is not proven to me. I have never encountered a frost dk that beat me in dps at any stage (admittedly I have seen very few frost dks at all). Unholy yes, but I have never seen frost do it. Unholy seems to be able to beat me in gear inferior to mine, but part of that is that plate dps itemization is simply better than mail.

The difference between frost dks and enhancement shamans is that shamans bring buffs and offhealing plain and simple.

Heroism: You point out that elemental/resto can cover that too, but the comparison you asked for is not between frost and elemental or resto. You can't change the parameters of the comparison to support your argument. I can just as easily say why should I bring a frost dk when unholy does more dps and brings almost the same abilities.

Enhancement brings heroism, greater agi/str, melee haste, caster haste, near free offhealing, near free interrupts, offensive spell purging, improved spellpower, passive disease/poison cleansing, weak passive healing, weak passive mp5, AoE snares, a powerful AoE dispel against fear & sleep, a group spell blocker, and three types of resistances. Enhancement shamans are one of the most powerful buff classes in the game. That is why high-end guilds like to have at least one whereas I have never seen a high end guild recruit frost dks specifically. Restos and elementals can bring some of the buffs, but it costs them more in opportunity cost to re-lay totems, purge etc. Enhance can do it regularly without much more cost than a GCD and enhance will keep up with the melee. Resto and elemental lose a LOT of effectiveness if they have to keep running around.

Frost dks bring a weaker agi/str debuff, melee haste, greater durability, and offensive interrupts.

As I said, I have never seen frost do more dps than enhancement (it is possible that they can, but I would have to see proof of that) but they certainly bring FAR less raid utility. Yes, other shaman can bring some of the same raid utility, but the same can be said that other DKs bring greater dps than frost.

[Deathdragon1000]

I have played a Frost Dk through TOC (recently switched to Unholy for ICC). I have been Topping the charts in Frost for months now, with no problem and we 1 shot every boss in Normal Toc.

Nowadays, Frost Dk's are only Frost Dk's, when we have to give Icy Talons. For our Frost DPS is subpar (although still good) to blood and Unholy.

Although if Both of the players bring Exactly the same dps and the only Factor is still the 20% buff, then it really doesn't matter.

[MarcM85]

Enhancement brings heroism, greater agi/str, melee haste, caster haste, near free offhealing, near free interrupts, offensive spell purging, improved spellpower, passive disease/poison cleansing, weak passive healing, weak passive mp5, AoE snares, a powerful AoE dispel against fear & sleep, a group spell blocker, and three types of resistances. Enhancement shamans are one of the most powerful buff classes in the game. That is why high-end guilds like to have at least one whereas I have never seen a high end guild recruit frost dks specifically. Restos and elementals can bring some of the buffs, but it costs them more in opportunity cost to re-lay totems, purge etc. Enhance can do it regularly without much more cost than a GCD and enhance will keep up with the melee. Resto and elemental lose a LOT of effectiveness if they have to keep running around.

Frost dks bring a weaker agi/str debuff, melee haste, greater durability, and offensive interrupts.

This for me is what makes enh shaman better than frost dk, and many other classes. Raid utility. They have an answer for everything. Best interrupts of any melee (6 second cd fir little mana), purges, tremor totem, earthbind totem, cleansing totem can all be game-changers, never mind the other buffs that shamans can bring.

Note also that many of those totems are party only, so one shaman cannot cover a raid. Im often put in group with the tanks for this reason, so e.g. I can drop a tremor on Ony phase 3 or a cleansing totem in Faction Champs.

[evan_s]

This for me is what makes enh shaman better than frost dk, and many other classes. Raid utility. They have an answer for everything. Best interrupts of any melee (6 second cd fir little mana), purges, tremor totem, earthbind totem, cleansing totem can all be game-changers, never mind the other buffs that shamans can bring.

Note also that many of those totems are party only, so one shaman cannot cover a raid. Im often put in group with the tanks for this reason, so e.g. I can drop a tremor on Ony phase 3 or a cleansing totem in Faction Champs.

I'm pretty sure shaman are the best spell interrupting class available currently. Relatively short cool down, off the GCD and instant cast so doesn't interfere with our dps at all and the mana cost really should be irrelevant. Enhancement shaman really the only class that can provide consistent interrupts with out lowering our dps.

I'd also throw in the ability to dual spec to Resto or Elemental which can be very useful on a raid. Need more caster dmg for Lady deathwisper or an extra healer for a boss that hits harder? An enhancement shaman could be able to help out. A dk or hunter can't do anything.

I'd say our dps is also competitive. Probably not going to match or beat an equally geared out MM hunter or Frost dk right now but close enough. You have to account for the fact that both those specs are currently not the highest dps specs for those classes so Shaman + Survival hunter + Blood or unholy dk may do more damage total than MM Hunter + Frost DK + some shaman replacement.

[Nikoll]

because frost DPS sucks. And frost tanking sucks. While enh, does not.

[Whoopsa]

I'd bring the better player.

[Nangz]

Imp totems bl/hero and greater dps

let me explain the last one

for a dk to have wf he must spend 6 talent points

choosing this spec is a decent dps loss. If on a single target fight you cant beat said dk with this spec..... Play better
cleave the dk will win

the frost dk spec without the buff is closer to urs but then again you bring the buff

[diaboles]

because 99.5% of DK's are bads and up-themselves noobs that think they should get everythink haded to them....just saying

yet alota shamans love it when they get a group because normally only 1 gets in a raid...so they show it... DK's should not have been put in the game

TROLL TROLL TROLL DK'S SUCK

[Gray_Matter]

Imp totems is still relatively quite close to what horn of winter gives - I can't recall the exact numbers but it's a slim margin.

It's a 15% raid wide boost. Thats not a slim margin. That will easily make up for any DPS loss.

[Jax Omen]

A good Enhancement Shaman with Improved Windfury will DESTROY the numbers put out by a good frost DK who has to talent Icy Talons. They lose way too much DPS to bring that buff viably, frost dps specs are tight for talent points as-is.

That's why you take an enhancement shaman instead of replacing them with a frost DK talented into Icy Talons. The Enhance lets the Frost DK put out good numbers.

[Ambrossius]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/aeubw...067#Ambrossius - Festergut on Tuesday.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/aeubw...367#Ambrossius - Rotface on Tuesday.


Why would you NOT bring an Enhancer? Haha.

Yeah, the raid utility is great. But we also bring very competitive DPS.

But yeah, as another person mentioned.. ToC/ToGC25 are very AoE heavy which really doesn't give Enhancers an opportunity to shine. Give me a boss like Rotface or Festergut and oh harro numbers.

Hell, decent comparison.. I'll average about 9k DPS on Anub 25 Heroic (AoE the whole time just about).. which is like 200 lower than I did on Festergut. Whereas, you'll see UNHOLY DKs and other strong AoE classes up in the 14k range... but where were they on the single target Brutallus-esque fights? Pretty much the same as me.

Chart topping isn't all I'm reinforcing for Enhance, but you've all taken care of the rest for me. I'm just throwing a little more ammunition in there as to why Enhancers are an absolutely integral part of any raid.

[Baabinator]

Because Enhancement shamans are cooler

[Flemshady]

Yes, I also feel silly for not mentioning the raid utility brought specifically by enh. My guild struggled with finding active and stabile melee shamans for entire Sunwell, so it ended up with me rerolling. Now they used to take me bringing the buffs for granted until they tried Faction Champions Heroic without the spam-purging never again.