Lackluster T10 4 set bonus (resto)

[cheesypeas]

Just wanna check other peoples opinions of the 4 set T10 bonus and how bad it is...

With a very quick calculation given the following:

Rejuv normal tick 2900, crit with T9 4 set 4400 (give or take a bit but close)

30% crit fully raid buffed

Vs

2% chance of a new rejuv per tick.

Over 1500 ticks

Base healing

1500 x 2900 = 4350000 healing

Extra for T9 4 set bonus: No. ticks x crit chance x extra healing (4.4 - 2.9)

1500 x .3 x 1500 = 675000

Extra healing for T10 4 set bonus: No. ticks x chance of rejuv proc x rejuv healing

1500 x 0.02 x (2900 x5) = 435000

Also, how is the target chosen for the new rejuv?

Or have a missed something obvious? (I'm exlcuding stat increases from gear at the moment)

[shags the penguin]

tbh I am not a huge fan of it...but then you only have to take 1 crit part to get it (chest/shoulders) crit helm is only option
and 30% crit raid buffed ? i get about 20% crit max your haste must suffer, the 2 set bonus should hopefully make up for the 4 set being a little weak... which it is lets face it t8 was brilliant t9 is very good, t10 lacks a little.

If its not a smart heal style proc then i may end up not taking it.

[cheesypeas]

Well I've gemmed some haste and I'm sitting around 580 atm. Armory shows me in my feral gear unfortunately and wow-heroes hasn't updated (HC Solace of the Defeated ftw!)

Yeah, the two set is nice, I prefered it before they nerfed it, was going to be WG remains at full strength!

Assuming my numbers aren't completely off, it works out as needing about an extra 160 healing per tick of rejuv and the extra SP from T9 - T10 upgrade is about 160 SP (over 4 pieces I think it was).

[Cerelli]

you need a time component in your calculation. Comparing tick for tick, T9 will always win because of the crits (assuming equal spellpower, which wont be the case due to the increased stats on the T10 gear). However, T10 will give your more ticks in fewer time because you are reaching the desired number of ticks sooner.

You have a 12% chance per application of rejuv for it to jump to somebody else. so you cast rejuv on 8.33 people, statistically you should get 1 free one. However, that free rejuv again has a 12% chance to jump (or so I assume). Modeling the jumps from the free rejuvs is the problem here, especially if you get into a situation where you get a string of propagating hots branching off a single HoT.

It can be done, but doing it by hand would be pretty tricky. This is also working on the assumption that the T10 rejuvs behave like normal and will also jump to new targets.

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*edit* i drank some coffee and put some more thought into this. The math isn't as bad as i initially thought.

100 casts will yield 12 free rejuvs. Those 12 free rejuvs should spawn an additional 1 rejuv.

Giving a total of 113 total rejuv applications from 100 GCDs.

for simplicity, lets assume a 1 second GCD. No rapid rejuv glyph. casting rejuv on 1 person and letting it tick off before reapplying. with 2 group members standing idle next him.

100 GCDs x 15 second HoT duration = 1500 seconds

from those 100 cast HoTs, you get 12 free rejuvs jumping to a group member plus a single jump from a T10 rejuv giving an additional 13 rejuvs within that 1500 second window.

113 rejuv applications x 6 ticks per application = 678 HoT ticks over 1500 seconds

taking your rejuv numbers:

(2900 healing x 678 Ticks)/1500 seconds = 1311 HPS

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With T9

2900 healing/4400 crit heal

100 casts = 600 ticks

30% crit

1500 seconds

180 ticks will be crits/420 non crits

[(420 x 2900) + (180 x 4400)]/1500 seconds

= 1340 HPS

As Degrador pointed out, your crit percentage is pretty high. I just went back and checked some world of logs parses and I average 20-22% crit rate on my rejuvs.

same calculation as before but with a more accurate crit chance

20% crit chance till give you 120 crits in 600 ticks

[(480 x 2900) + (120 x 4400)]/1500 seconds

= 1280 HPS

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Assuming equal spellpower (and a crit chance of 25% or higher) T9 is better, but that wont be the case. the spellpower bonus on the T10 gear alone should be enough to cover the HPS difference.

Ilvl 245 T9 has 629 raw spellpower on all 5 pieces

Ilvl 264 T10 has 768 raw spellpower on all 5 pieces

Difference of 139 SP. The gap will only widen when you factor in the SP contribution from spirit.

So fights where rejuv blanketing is required, T10 wins hands down IMO. Fights more centered on tank healing, T9 might still pull ahead more for the fact that there isn't any raid healing required for the T10 rejuvs to soak up.

[Degrador]

One thing I noticed you've missed in your calculation is that Rejuv has 6 ticks, and I'm not sure why your crit chance is so high but with just under the haste cap I get about 20% crit chance when raid buffed, which puts the 4T10 bonus about the same as 4T9. Just on raw numbers, as Cerelli points out the stat bonuses would make up any difference.

Having said that, the big difference between them is that 4T9's bonus is applied to someone that you cast Rejuv on, and you wouldn't cast it on someone who you didn't expect to take damage (hence it's unlikely that the 4T9 bonus would be wasted any more than the normal Rejuv would). 4T10 on the other hand is cast on a random person, and hence it's entirely possible that it will go on someone who simply won't take any damage (particularly for fights with little / no raid damage).

I suspect I will carry around both sets. 4T10 will be the primary set I heal with, however for fights with mostly tank healing I'll switch to 4T9 (both T9 bonuses benefit tank healing).

[cheesypeas]

Here is my still not updated wow-heroes (mainly trinkets) http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?...ame=cheesypeas I keep forgetting to log out in my resto gear, usually finish by tanking a HC for my frost

I've been waiting to change my back and boots for a while (both with crit rating) and my chest will probably help explain the high crit rating. Fully buffed with moonkin aura is 29.8% or so. I figured with T9 4 set bonus I shouldn't be too afraid of having some crit.

Not sure why I went with 5 ticks and not 6... a reduction in crit and getting the right number of ticks certainly changes the view on T10. I'm still not convinced it's a good upgrade, especially if it's reliant on the increase in stats to make it worth while. Also, as you mention, there's also the predictability of where the new hot will appear.

At the very least I'm not touching it until I can get 4set straight away

[Ravenblade]

The 4xT9 bonus vanished from my inventory some time ago and I'm not really in a hurry to get 4xT10. If someone ever noticed that in my raid group then he had been good at being silent about it. That is during all the ToGC HMs and whatever was available in ICC so far.

Personally I've been very critical to Blizzard's trend to delegate potential class mechanics into set bonuses creating what is often perceived as "eternal" bonus suggesting that once you loose this vital "talent" your performance will greatly suffer. The bonus has potential, no doubt, but whether it lives up to it depends how much in favour the dynamics of your group and the encounter are. Moreover - as expected - people started gearing and promoting strategies for pure crit, I'd see Druids with barely 300 haste and 35+% crit raid-buffed, kittens died because of them but I just hope that Blizzard will deal with it just like they have dealt with T8.

Either way I think the 4xT10 bonus is closer to what I imagine under a set bonus, a set bonus should not re-define your game, it should be a nice addition if you chose to get it. Any set bonus showing a tendency for compulsory acquisition is terrible design, it demotes heavily the former benefits of going for non-set pieces.

[Bluedynamite]

I wholeheartedly agree with Ravenblade.

[doomchken]

its made me cry some of the peices i have given up, and not buying the emblem chest, because i have too keep the set bonus but as with pre-nerf T-8 it is too good to give up atm.

-However set bonuses are supposed to be a decision and i am fine with having to get my 4set T10 which will give the same stats i need as well as the bonus.

[Khoryace]

You guys forgot a fundamental aspect of the T10.

Who said that it is going to spread on a target that is missing HP.
It could basicly spread on a 100% target and do 0 healing.

Also, there are alot of fights where casters needs to be distanced from others.
The best bet would be to Rejuv melees but then again, melees are convoited for Wild Growth/CoH/PoH/Chain Heals.

What is the spread range? If it only spreads about 5-6 yards away it is definitely going to get wasted procs on ranged/casters.
What are the spread conditions? Does it spread to a low hp target or totally random...

Sorry for my bad english.

T9 > T10 Imo, especially if you got 258 tokens.

I also claim that simple calculations can not be made to compare the set bonuses since of it's possibility of spreading to 100% targets.

[Formless Voice]

I also claim that simple calculations can not be made to compare the set bonuses since of it's possibility of spreading to 100% targets.

This statement actually forced me to register instead of just lurking. You cant simply dismiss it because of the possiblity that it may have no benefit. T9 may also have no benefit every crit tick may be overheal but that doesnt mean you dismiss the possibility.

I agree that more information is needed on how the target is chosen and the restrictions on the jump. The wording on the 4pc even suggests that the heal itself may move and I havent seen confirmation that this does not occur though it would make T10 so bad that you would have to avoid 4pc so I hope it is not the case.

Any modelling of this kind of bonus can only really look at potential healing and comparing the two, looking at circumstances where one is more useful than another is generally beyond the scope of simple math but simply dismissing it because the benefit may be 0 in some circumstances serves no purpose as almost any benefit is potentially 0 under the right circumstances, or I guess more appropriately the wrong circumstances.

[ECZO]

The 4xT9 bonus vanished from my inventory some time ago and I'm not really in a hurry to get 4xT10. If someone ever noticed that in my raid group then he had been good at being silent about it. That is during all the ToGC HMs and whatever was available in ICC so far.

Personally I've been very critical to Blizzard's trend to delegate potential class mechanics into set bonuses creating what is often perceived as "eternal" bonus suggesting that once you loose this vital "talent" your performance will greatly suffer. The bonus has potential, no doubt, but whether it lives up to it depends how much in favour the dynamics of your group and the encounter are. Moreover - as expected - people started gearing and promoting strategies for pure crit, I'd see Druids with barely 300 haste and 35+% crit raid-buffed, kittens died because of them but I just hope that Blizzard will deal with it just like they have dealt with T8.

Either way I think the 4xT10 bonus is closer to what I imagine under a set bonus, a set bonus should not re-define your game, it should be a nice addition if you chose to get it. Any set bonus showing a tendency for compulsory acquisition is terrible design, it demotes heavily the former benefits of going for non-set pieces.

Set bonuses have always been a part of the game and in a sense they add something new and cool about your class that you look forward to acquire when a new patch is deployed.

On the other side I feel that you're right in a sense, from 4pc t8 to 4pc t9 we have all been "forced" to mantain our old sets until we could have made a complete switch to the new ones in order to achieve top performance and I think that this is the big design issue.

TLDR I tend to agree with you to a degree;

- Bonus Sets in general ar cool
- 2pc bad Bonus Sets or 4pc OP ones are bad design since they disincentive gear progression and freedom of choice

[Ormula]

You guys forgot a fundamental aspect of the T10.
Who said that it is going to spread on a target that is missing HP.
It could basicly spread on a 100% target and do 0 healing.

Well I believe it would be a smart heal, but even if it's not, then it's just another application of rejuvenation. 70% of my rejuvenations are being cast on people with full health whom I expect to be taking damage in the near future. If you're throwing rejuvs as a target is being hit, then what's the point? It's a full 2 seconds (At haste cap) before even one heal is thrown out.

[Elratha]

@ OP:

It seems that a lot of the Resto Druid community has missed all together the changes made to Gift of the Earth Mother in 3.3. With the gear available in TOC it was very easy to hit the haste cap (get your GCD to 1 second) and then just stack crit while being careful to not dip below the haste cap. Assuming you are not specced into Celestial Focus a Resto Druid must now reach 856 haste to get the GCD to 1 second (See Elitest Jerks http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37578-r...n_itemization/). Until you are at the haste cap Haste should always be favored over Crit.

A Resto Druid that sits at 400-500 haste and stacks crit like in 3.2 is itemizing wrong.

This pertains to the T9 to T10 comparison in a very big way. More crit made the T9 4piece bonus more amazing, but if you are itemizing correctly to maximize your throughput, your unbuffed crit should not be much higher than 15%.

Conclusion: Your crit should be a lot lower than in 3.2 reducing the OP-ness of T9. If you are favoring crit over haste and are still below 856 haste you need to do some research. And maybe a little soul searching too!