Thread: 3.3 balance adjustments, Rotface (10) Nerf, Blue posts

What this means, plainly, is that a disproportionate number of people were being put out of the fight near the 30% mark in 10 player (by a large percentage) versus 25 player, making the entire fight much more difficult than intended.

Oh well, thanks. Thats exactly what happened to us all evening long. And suddenly *bam* he was dead and it felt challenging but doable.

Originally Posted by Skulver

Reg: They've nerfed rogue DPS, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yes.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what can rogues ever give a raid in return?
Xerxes: Expose armor.
Reg: Oh yeah, they can give that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: 4% melee damage increased debuff.
Stan: Oh yes... melee damage increased debuff, Reg, you remember what melee dps used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that expose armor and the melee damage increased debuff are two things that the rogues can provide...
Matthias: And spell interrupts.
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously spell interrupts... spell interrupts go without saying. But apart from expose armor, melee damage increased debuff and spell interrupts...
Another Masked Activist: Crowd control...
Other Masked Voices: Melee crit chance increase... cast time slowing... enrage removal...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the whining...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Rogues left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Tricks of the trade!
Stan: And it's safe to walk around in ICC now without setting off those damn traps.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to remove those traps... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like that. (more general murmurs of agreement)
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from expose armor and the melee damage increase debuff and spell interrupts and crowd control and melee crit chance increase debuff and cast time slowing and enrage removal and whining and trap detection and removal... what can the Rogues do for us?
Xerxes: Bring DPS!
Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) DPS, yes... shut up!

This post is brilliant...except the fact is lacks any understanding of the bonuses Rogues give.

Expose armor is something rogues can bring at a DPS loss, while a class like a Paladin can bring Blessings as a static buff that doesn't have to be kept up at a cost to DPS.

Savage Combat is a justifyable buff.

Spell interrupts, just like Shamans can do. I fail to see how this justifies preventing them from topping charts as a MELEE PURE DPS class. Spell interrupts hardly equates to a class that can also tank, heal, etc.

Cast time slowing? Meaning Mind Numbing Poison? What Rogue ever uses that in a raid? Enrage removal? So we are going to stop mid-fight, apply anesthetic poison, then go remove the enrage?

Give me a break.

Originally Posted by Smokescreen1

This post is brilliant...except the fact is lacks any understanding of the bonuses Rogues give.

Expose armor is something rogues can bring at a DPS loss, while a class like a Paladin can bring Blessings as a static buff that doesn't have to be kept up at a cost to DPS.

Savage Combat is a justifyable buff.

Spell interrupts, just like Shamans can do. I fail to see how this justifies preventing them from topping charts as a MELEE PURE DPS class. Spell interrupts hardly equates to a class that can also tank, heal, etc.

Cast time slowing? Meaning Mind Numbing Poison? What Rogue ever uses that in a raid? Enrage removal? So we are going to stop mid-fight, apply anesthetic poison, then go remove the enrage?

Give me a break.

Are you aware that your point is fundamentally translated as "We would have utility, but we won't bring it because we need to bring the only thing we have, dps"?

At least stop pretending that you WANT more utility. Rogues never did. Blizzard showered utility over rogues for 2 years now and the reaction has always been "we don't want utility, we want an excuse to be top dps". That's what rogues want to do (and it's legitimate, in a way), and they want it so bad that they ignore the fact that they're fundamentally one of the very few classes that have unique utility. There's nothing a DK or a Warrior brings to the table that another class can't replicate, while Rogues have abilities no other class has access to.

Originally Posted by Valtiel

Are you aware that your point is fundamentally translated as "We would have utility, but we won't bring it because we need to bring the only thing we have, dps"?

At least stop pretending that you WANT more utility. Rogues never did. Blizzard showered utility over rogues for 2 years now and the reaction has always been "we don't want utility, we want an excuse to be top dps". That's what rogues want to do (and it's legitimate, in a way), and they want it so bad that they ignore the fact that they're fundamentally one of the very few classes that have unique utility. There's nothing a DK or a Warrior brings to the table that another class can't replicate, while Rogues have abilities no other class has access to.

Apparently you missed the entire point. Numerous classes have utility at no cost to their DPS. They can also perform entirely separate roles in the raid. Also, much of the so-called utility can be replicated by other classes (such as warriors), and much of the so called utility mentioned by the person attempting to be clever isn't a utility because certain poisons aren't even used in a raid situation. That being said, there's still no reason a pure DPS class shouldn't be above hybrid classes, and if you look at WOL reports for US and EU, Mutilate Rogues are the only justifyable nerf targets. Combat Rogues aren't even topping lists any more than Mages, DKs, etc. on Saurfang, which seems to be kind of a benchmark.

Originally Posted by Jaqen Hghar

I lol'd. Brilliant post, if not quite understanding some things (rogues should only use Expose Armor if there isn't a warrior - and when does that happen? - you don't get the melee damage buff and the crit buff at the same time, and when was the last time you saw disarmable traps in a raid/dungeon in an out of combat situation?)

The only problem with this is that rogues are the only class in the entire game that don't give a direct "buff" to anyone - and if you count tricks of the trade, then compare that to Trueshot Aura. Or, in Survival's case, Replenishment.

Maybe it's just the psychology of "Oh, I don't do anything to help my allies, I just kill our enemies" going on, but it's still there.

WTB Rogue version of Heroism/Bloodlust in Cata, PST.

^^

Originally Posted by Skulver

Reg: They've nerfed rogue DPS, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yes.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what can rogues ever give a raid in return?
Xerxes: Expose armor.
Reg: Oh yeah, they can give that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: 4% melee damage increased debuff.
Stan: Oh yes... melee damage increased debuff, Reg, you remember what melee dps used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that expose armor and the melee damage increased debuff are two things that the rogues can provide...
Matthias: And spell interrupts.
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously spell interrupts... spell interrupts go without saying. But apart from expose armor, melee damage increased debuff and spell interrupts...
Another Masked Activist: Crowd control...
Other Masked Voices: Melee crit chance increase... cast time slowing... enrage removal...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the whining...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Rogues left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Tricks of the trade!
Stan: And it's safe to walk around in ICC now without setting off those damn traps.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to remove those traps... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like that. (more general murmurs of agreement)
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from expose armor and the melee damage increase debuff and spell interrupts and crowd control and melee crit chance increase debuff and cast time slowing and enrage removal and whining and trap detection and removal... what can the Rogues do for us?
Xerxes: Bring DPS!
Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) DPS, yes... shut up!

I can't handle... so much win and... so much fail at the same time.

Anyway, let's just counter this with the usual whining...

4% melee damage - Combat talent, you know, that perfectly balanced spec that it's gonna be nerfed by the massive crying because assasination rogues are OP atm.
Expose armor - Almost every guild has a warrior to put sunder armor on the boss at a cheaper cost, but yeah, it's some utility we have here.
Spell interrupts - See above, kick's energy cost it's horrible, and if you need interruptions just call the "we-don't-have-raidspots" shamans, they're better at it. Almost every melee spec has an interrupt-like ability (ret paladins and feral druid's combo point interrupt says hi, amirite?), but hey! It's easier to let the rogue interrupt every fucking spell, enhancement shamans must not lose mana!
TotT - Useful for failtanks and to increase another rogue dps. Being serious, it's only useful for some fights to redirect adds or aggro wiped bosses.
Crowd Control- "You know, when I was younger, we were fighting the pulls before Gurtogg an...", you get the idea.
Cast time slowing, enrage removal, bla bla bla - Useful -again- for very few bosses.

To sum it up, we have that the only real buffs a rogue brings are:
4% melee damage if they're combat or a 3% improved critical change if they're assassination.
Interruption, like many others have.
Expose armor.
Tricks of the trade.

The other things are like implying that mages are very useful for the raid because they do imba dps on jaraxxus, it's one fight in a million, let it be. So rogues have similar buffs like other pures, but at the cost of a good chunk of dps, be it poison swapping or combo points wasted.

Well, now that I've done what everyone has done until know -nerdraging with or against rogues-, I'll give my opinion. Combat damage is fine atm, whereas assassination is overpowered as it is now. The problem is that if assassination rogues do similar damage to combat's, then everyone will go combat again, why? Because assassination doesn't have any useful cooldown (cold blood is a joke of a CD in PvE), so in hardmodes they're pretty much screwed.

Rogue is a pure class, like locks, mages and hunters, they should do similar dps depending on the fight (rogues should be higher on patchwerk fights because of the melee tax) and nothing else. All of them bring some utility to the raid, subpar to hybrids but that's one of the reasons they're or should be higher on charts.

PD. For the grammar nazis: English isn't my main language, so be quiet, shall we?

Originally Posted by chuck123

I sooo dont want to insult you but the nicest way to describe your ignorace is a plain /facepalm.

Noone ever said that you bring all those little things to one fight, but you can bring it to any fight, any day if you would want to.
Wich is exactly the problem...you dont want to bring utility, you just want to dominate the dmgmeters,wich made you to unlearn that you have a truckload of gadgets you could use if you would only choose to.This is not bad classdesign this is bad classhandling by individual players and judging by your post you are one of the latter ones. Furthermore i guess you havent had alot of time on Anub25HM as a rogue since Mindnumbling is VERY welcome if you do this fight with one BV tank, to lengthen the shadowstrike casts.
Dont come back and argue that your rotation is so hard and thats why you need to do high dps.
Combat and Mutilate rogues, use the same arguments BM-Hunters used in TBC to workaround the fact that they were spamming one button for a large portion of a fight. Now for rogues and wrath its 2 buttos for great ammount of time wich is really not very challenging to argue high numbers.
So please be less ignorant to even your own class, think about what would justify YOUR spot in a raid and when you cant find anything, its time to work on your gameplay and attitude since even Boomkins have raidspots (and thats clearly not because of their amazing dmg or their redundant buffs).Granted for the owls, they dont get picked alot but they get picked for the various reasons. (and even if its only the RL wich is more than just a reason to be in a raid).

About the guy posting the stupid comment about the dmg/skill distribution for rogues:
Yes they have really boring rotations but just because Autoattack is high in the charts it doesnt mean they dont use anything else (check MM hunters they will also have their auto attack as highest dmg portion and SV a 2nd highest). Maybe (just a wild guess tho) they have abilities wich increases their white dmg, they need to watch and refresh.

A bit of calling the Kettle Black I guess.

"No one ever said you bring all those things to one fight, but you CAN bring it, any day."
Yes. Let's give Paladins the option to bring Blessings if they want to, any day, but they must sacrifice in other areas to do so. Before we begin talking about ignorance, let's talk about reading comprehension at 1st grade level. My point was that other classes can bring these raid buffs, not as a sacrificial choice, but as routine with no sacrifice. Hunters can bring replenishment or Trueshot, not as any kind of sacrifice.

Actually our guild clears Anub25M on hard every week, and our Pally does the interrupts just fine. Baseless assumptions are about as ignorant as you can get.

So it seems the only one ignorant about Rogues is yourself.

Originally Posted by Smokescreen1

Apparently you missed the entire point. Numerous classes have utility at no cost to their DPS. They can also perform entirely separate roles in the raid. Also, much of the so-called utility can be replicated by other classes (such as warriors), and much of the so called utility mentioned by the person attempting to be clever isn't a utility because certain poisons aren't even used in a raid situation. That being said, there's still no reason a pure DPS class shouldn't be above hybrid classes, and if you look at WOL reports for US and EU, Mutilate Rogues are the only justifyable nerf targets. Combat Rogues aren't even topping lists any more than Mages, DKs, etc. on Saurfang, which seems to be kind of a benchmark.

You think dps warriors don't lose dps by Sundering? Suppose your tank setup is Feral/DK. Jimmy the Warrior is on sunders and losing dps, because you'll never see Johnny the Rogue volounteering for it.

I hate to break this on you, but Warriors lose dps on Sundering, Shamans lose dps on interrupting and purging, DKs lose dps on interrupts and chains of ice, casters lose dps on dispelling, spellstealing and often cursing, hunters lose dps on kiting and trapping. EVERYONE loses dps on utility, paladins lose dps on cleansing and raid damage absorbtion, and so on.

The core reason why rogues don't see themselves as an utility class is that to them the idea of losing dps for anything is unacceptable, while apparently everyone else sees it as a fair trade. I think the TotT rogue pairing strategy is the perfect example; now Blizzard making threat irrelevant in WotLK sure is a good excuse, but let's be serious, when warlocks were threatcapped you still said "screw utility, me and my rogue buddy have to top dps".

I hate to be so negative about this, but there's little more unique utility Blizzard can give you; and if they do, you won't use it, because "Rogue Bloodlust costs energy and a gcd, we lose dps on it; let just shamans do it, and buff us more".

You are really ignorant if you don't think rogues need nerfs. They pull off 10-11k dps on single target. Second come other melees with 8k. The difference is perfectly fine, right?

Originally Posted by Valtiel

You think dps warriors don't lose dps by Sundering? Suppose your tank setup is Feral/DK. Jimmy the Warrior is on sunders and losing dps, because you'll never see Johnny the Rogue volounteering for it.

I hate to break this on you, but Warriors lose dps on Sundering, Shamans lose dps on interrupting and purging, DKs lose dps on interrupts and chains of ice, casters lose dps on dispelling, spellstealing and often cursing, hunters lose dps on kiting and trapping. EVERYONE loses dps on utility, paladins lose dps on cleansing and raid damage absorbtion, and so on.

The core reason why rogues don't see themselves as an utility class is that to them the idea of losing dps for anything is unacceptable, while apparently everyone else sees it as a fair trade. I think the TotT rogue pairing strategy is the perfect example; now Blizzard making threat irrelevant in WotLK sure is a good excuse, but let's be serious, when warlocks were threatcapped you still said "screw utility, me and my rogue buddy have to top dps".

I hate to be so negative about this, but there's little more unique utility Blizzard can give you; and if they do, you won't use it, because "Rogue Bloodlust costs energy and a gcd, we lose dps on it; let just shamans do it, and buff us more".

The point is, a Warrior can also tank. A shammy can also heal. The point isn't that Rogues have NO utility. A class plike Paladins or Hunters can bring a raid buff at NO cost to DPS. I think you missed the primary point. Rogues still are a pure dps class, regardless of things like interrupts that are an obvious cost to anyone's DPS, whatever class they may be. And the point is, as such, there is nothing wrong with a Combat Rogue as they are judging by WOL reports. The only issue is Muti Rogues. So why nerf?

Originally Posted by Linneth

I can't handle... so much win and... so much fail at the same time.

Anyway, let's just counter this with the usual whining...

4% melee damage - Combat talent, you know, that perfectly balanced spec that it's gonna be nerfed by the massive crying because assasination rogues are OP atm.
Expose armor - Almost every guild has a warrior to put sunder armor on the boss at a cheaper cost, but yeah, it's some utility we have here.
Spell interrupts - See above, kick's energy cost it's horrible, and if you need interruptions just call the "we-don't-have-raidspots" shamans, they're better at it. Almost every melee spec has an interrupt-like ability (ret paladins and feral druid's combo point interrupt says hi, amirite?), but hey! It's easier to let the rogue interrupt every fucking spell, enhancement shamans must not lose mana!
TotT - Useful for failtanks and to increase another rogue dps. Being serious, it's only useful for some fights to redirect adds or aggro wiped bosses.
Crowd Control- "You know, when I was younger, we were fighting the pulls before Gurtogg an...", you get the idea.
Cast time slowing, enrage removal, bla bla bla - Useful -again- for very few bosses.

To sum it up, we have that the only real buffs a rogue brings are:
4% melee damage if they're combat or a 3% improved critical change if they're assassination.
Interruption, like many others have.
Expose armor.
Tricks of the trade.

The other things are like implying that mages are very useful for the raid because they do imba dps on jaraxxus, it's one fight in a million, let it be. So rogues have similar buffs like other pures, but at the cost of a good chunk of dps, be it poison swapping or combo points wasted.

Well, now that I've done what everyone has done until know -nerdraging with or against rogues-, I'll give my opinion. Combat damage is fine atm, whereas assassination is overpowered as it is now. The problem is that if assassination rogues do similar damage to combat's, then everyone will go combat again, why? Because assassination doesn't have any useful cooldown (cold blood is a joke of a CD in PvE), so in hardmodes they're pretty much screwed.

Rogue is a pure class, like locks, mages and hunters, they should do similar dps depending on the fight (rogues should be higher on patchwerk fights because of the melee tax) and nothing else. All of them bring some utility to the raid, subpar to hybrids but that's one of the reasons they're or should be higher on charts.

PD. For the grammar nazis: English isn't my main language, so be quiet, shall we?

^^