1. #1

    Wait for MB or MF Away?

    I constantly find myself after casting two consecutive Mind Flays that my Mind Blast is still on CD for another 0.5-1s (let's assume that all DoTs don't need to be refreshed), what would be the better thing to do? Wait for the MB to get off CD to cast it or just do a third MF and clip it at the second tick THEN cast MB? Any input is appreciated!

    Thanks!
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  2. #2

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Try casting MF three times. Clip it at the second tick on each of the first two casts.. ie. MF2-MF2-MF3. That should let you get one extra tick in and should solve your ~.75 second gap.

  3. #3

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Will give that shot! Thanks!
    <Guiles Theme Song> @ Magtheridon-US Horde 20-man, SoO-14/14H US#29, currently recruiting all
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  4. #4

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    I would disagree. In a perfect setting if you could exactly clip MF at the right time, it may be worthwhile, but in a practical setting, that is impossible. Also, I'm not sure at what gear level you are, but there was some theorycrafting on shadowpriest.com that showed MF clipping to maximize MB was not a dps boost. I think that was at T9 level gear.

    Once you reach T9 gear, prioritize your DoTs at all times. If you have a spare GCD, you can use SWD as a filler. Otherwise, just cast a full MF, then MB

  5. #5
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    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Clip your MF after the second tick or use SW if you are at ~1sec before MB's CD and cast MB
    MB->MF3->MF3->MF2

  6. #6

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    I would disagree. In a perfect setting if you could exactly clip MF at the right time, it may be worthwhile, but in a practical setting, that is impossible. Also, I'm not sure at what gear level you are, but there was some theorycrafting on shadowpriest.com that showed MF clipping to maximize MB was not a dps boost. I think that was at T9 level gear.

    Once you reach T9 gear, prioritize your DoTs at all times. If you have a spare GCD, you can use SWD as a filler. Otherwise, just cast a full MF, then MB
    Clipping MF at 2 ticks to cast MB earlier is always a DPS gain until you get enough haste to make MF > MB... however that point isn't concievable until 4pc T10 and something around 1K haste rating (maybe a bit more).

    Of course under the effects of bloodlust it's possible best to drop MB because you are probably reaching a point where MF is around a 1.8sec cast or less.

  7. #7

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    this is when you cast shadow word death
    Quote Originally Posted by niki View Post
    How is gay offensive? You know that gay has more meanings than just homosexual right. You should chill out and go smoke a fag.

  8. #8

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martialis
    this is when you cast shadow word death
    A MF2 does more damage than SW and in about the same amount of time. SW should only be used when moving.

  9. #9

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Clipping MF at 2 ticks to cast MB earlier is always a DPS gain until you get enough haste to make MF > MB... however that point isn't concievable until 4pc T10 and something around 1K haste rating (maybe a bit more).
    1k Haste w/ 4pT10 would be uh... 30.5% unbuffed, 41.5% raid buffed? So that's ~1.77 cast. Wouldn't be GCD capped quite yet, but that's a very quick MF. Would certainly be a pure MF rotation during BL with a 1.36 second cast and MB under 1 second. Certainly makes the idea of haste stacking even more appealing, there would be less pitfalls with VT once MB is out of the way.

    Then again... Hunters are moving mostly to Marks. Locks are moving mostly to Afflic and Demo. LOL Frost Mage... Replenishment for the lose? ;D

  10. #10

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    I would disagree. In a perfect setting if you could exactly clip MF at the right time, it may be worthwhile, but in a practical setting, that is impossible. Also, I'm not sure at what gear level you are, but there was some theorycrafting on shadowpriest.com that showed MF clipping to maximize MB was not a dps boost. I think that was at T9 level gear.
    You don't need to be perfect, just better than three quarters of a second zero dps. The point is that sitting around doing nothing for ~0.75 seconds is always the biggest DPS loss. The important thing is to find the most effective way to fill the gap. You can fill it by reducing your haste, casting SWD or clipping your MF casts. Clipping your MF casts generally gets the best result, though I'll be the first to admit that I also periodically use SWD (especially when moving).

    The discussion you reference at SP.com isn't of much value. It doesn't consider a useful timeframe (one MB cycle is nearly useless - the following events still matter!) and makes what I thought were questionable assumptions about reaction time / lag etc. If I'm remembering correctly that analysis only applied an estimated reaction time to clipping MF, and not to casting MB.

    As a rule, if you are EVER not casting you are losing DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Then again... Hunters are moving mostly to Marks. Locks are moving mostly to Afflic and Demo. LOL Frost Mage... Replenishment for the lose? ;D
    Ret pallies ftw.

  11. #11

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Just so you know if you live in AUS like myself, or for some reason have greater than say 250-300 MS it is never worth using a MF2. To be fair its extremely hard to judge a MF2, and while i can get 90% of them right, the few i get wrong due to my MS = a fair dps loss. Saying this if you live right next door to blizzard and have <100 MS then you can try a MF2. Also if your weapon swaping to get black magic on and then reswapping to +63 spellpower, SW has to be used in order to achieve this.

  12. #12

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyus
    Ret pallies ftw.
    Dammit! Now not only are they stealing my DKs ArP gear, but they're actually useful too? :'(

  13. #13

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    MF clipping is one of the most common reasons shadowpriests underperform. And you're encouraging them to do it.

  14. #14

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    MF clipping is one of the most common reasons shadowpriests underperform. And you're encouraging them to do it.
    If you're not casting you're losing DPS. Beyond that do whatever works to boost your damage output. Most of us have found that with high (700+) haste values clipping MF is the most effective way to prevent a gap in our casting time.

    If you find that you can't clip in a manner that increases your net dps output (perhaps you're in the same situation as Weena where connection plays a role) then by all means use a different solution. Just try to adjust things so that you're not waiting to cast MB.

  15. #15

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    I generally run with a 300ms. I know. Telus Communications sucks. So I am trying to focus more on filling gaps with death since clipping has not worked out that well with a big giant red bars in my cast bar. Or I will just cast the entire flay.

  16. #16

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    MF clipping is one of the most common reasons shadowpriests underperform. And you're encouraging them to do it.
    Maybe so, but it remains that MF clipping is one of the most common reason shadowpriests that don't know what they're doing underperform.

  17. #17

    Re: Wait for MB or MF Away?

    Quote Originally Posted by timoseewho
    I constantly find myself after casting two consecutive Mind Flays that my Mind Blast is still on CD for another 0.5-1s (let's assume that all DoTs don't need to be refreshed), what would be the better thing to do? Wait for the MB to get off CD to cast it or just do a third MF and clip it at the second tick THEN cast MB? Any input is appreciated!

    Thanks!
    MB has about 25% more damage than MF per cast time. If you don't agree with this number, you can use your own estimate in the calculation.

    So if MF does x/GCD damage, MB does 1.25x/GCD. When you add waiting time t infront of MB cast it becomes 1.25x/(GCD+t).

    Mark them equal and solve time t:
    x/GCD = 1.25x/(GCD+t)
    t = 0.25GCD

    With 25% haste t = 0.3s. So if you spend 0.3s waiting for the MB cooldown, you have totally wasted it, because MF would have done the same damage. Also, you now have MB on CD for another 5.5s. I'd say never wait for MB, cast it only if it's ready. MB-MF3-MF3-MB will get you nice MB uptimes, but it's a dps loss. Cast MB-MF3-MF3-MF2-MB instead, worse MB uptimes, but more dps.

    This is why I don't draw too much attention to average MB cast interval as a measure of rotation goodness. When you get more haste, you might have to change your rotation at some point to adapt. This could mean that average MB interval is longer, although the rotation and dps is actually better.


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