Holy Priest and Max Raid Throughput.

[harky]

I'm not sure I agree that SP is 20% behind haste... haste is one of the few linear scaling stats and you will find that a large proportion of increased SP results in futher overhealing than actually increasing effective healing.

I've always been a large haste proponent so i'd like to see the theroy and assumptions behind why SP is 20% beyond haste... i'm more of the opinion that they are basically equal and you should strive for and equal stacking of the 2.

If all you're caring about is raw throughput (the OPs original intent), then yes SP > Haste by a substantial margin. Mostly that's caused by massive SP coefficients. If Holy is given haste scaling on Renew this would change (and quick), but the very, very high SP scaling makes SP as a healer very strong.

Haste is a bit better than SP for GH, primarily, while being close to useless on PoM and CoH and only marginally useful on Renew and FH and still good for PoH. You can contribute the worth of your main filler to PoM and CoH, however, when GCD locked.

Looking at GH with the 2/5+3/3 setup and you'll find that Haste is ~25% better than SP. With a 5/5+3/3 setup it's down around 17%. PoH is different because the total SP contribution, rather than ~187% is now over 250%. CoH gets up to 200%, PoM gets in excess of 300%. Renew is at 188%(+28%).

You can work out the numbers for each, then the balance of your healing, etc, but unless you're casting a lot of GH then Haste loses. Haste is vital to Holy though, don't get me wrong. The issue here was this: The OP was trying to lay out a plan for the highest throughput you could get as Holy. SP is better for this and cheaper on gear, but the OP encouraged SP/Haste, Haste and Haste/Spi. The result would only benefit a couple spells which are low on the throughput scale compared to those which scale much better with SP.

Either way, if you read my other posts you'll note I actually encourage Haste and Int balances as Holy due to function, rather than throughput. In real raids the scale factor differences aren't as important and typically regen is the best route to go due to sustainable throughput.

[ZeoniX]

There is one thing you guys have forgotten.

From a practical perspective haste is NOT linear. There is one big thing you have overlooked that haste does not affect and that is cooldowns.

2 of the top 3-4 spells that Holy priests use are on a cooldown which haste does not affect and hence doesn't affect the throughput off while both crit and SP does.

I'm not saying crit is better than haste which it by any means is not. What I'm saying is that spell power is at least on the same level as haste due to this fact.

[Kelesti]

There is one thing you guys have forgotten.

From a practical perspective haste is NOT linear. There is one big thing you have overlooked that haste does not affect and that is cooldowns.

2 of the top 3-4 spells that Holy priests use are on a cooldown which haste does not affect and hence doesn't affect the throughput off while both crit and SP does.

I'm not saying crit is better than haste which it by any means is not. What I'm saying is that spell power is at least on the same level as haste due to this fact.

It's not so much that we've forgotten. Haste still drives the Global Cooldown off your instants (even though it doesn't reduce the actual cooldown, or Renew's effective output).

SP is bad, but landing your Prayers (both with and without Serendipity, yes it's worth it to cast at zero stacks) faster is a net gain. Gemming yellow slots for SP/Haste generally isn't such a bad idea, when boosting solid SP (when you're not in need of the regen) only helps on "some" of your spells.

Sure, it does increase the output on all of them. But how much of that extra 20SP makes a difference on whether it's either overheal, or they need additional healing from other sources? The tide of healing remains relatively unchanged, haste is just as important as Spell Power.

[ZeoniX]

Just as important, exactly. That's my point.

One thing you said that made me raise an eyebrow though is the fact that you talk about "tide of healing". It's an interesting concept. Overall the priest class isn't a healing class with an even tide of healing, that's the druids who has a very even stream of healing.

The priest class (holy) is a burst aoe healer. We do our best job when the damage is bursty. When the "tide of damage" is even and the tide of healing needs to be even to compensate for that then we're just backing up the druids, who are the true masters of sustained aoe healing.

I don't know what your previous experience is, but PoH is a dying spell. It had it's glory in Ulduar but didn't see much use in TotC and most of all now in Icecrown. I can't think of a single situation where it's worth casting two Prayer of Healing in a row. These days it's Renew, CoH and PoM that are on the throne and it's only renew that benefits from haste.

Just to be perfectly clear, I don't mean that haste is a bad in any way. I put it way over crit in terms of value, but I have a hard time justifying going over 25% haste (like 800 rating) unbuffed and gemming for it. Personally my gear philosophy is grab items with haste and spirit as much as possible and gem for sp when possible together with some int, screw crit of course (been explained very well by a previous poster why crit is pretty crappy).

Oh, one more thing. PoM is the most efficient spell we got since it always does some effective healing, bounce it off tanks and it's always a win to keep that on cooldown. CoH is a pretty small heal but hits a lot of targets so boosting that one isn't a bad idea and will only marginally increase your overhealing but will be a significant boost to your effective healing with it. Renew is actually the spell that does most of your overhealing these days since many ticks get wasted unless the tide of damage is even and sustained (main reason why it should be glyhphed in current content, if all ticks don't do effective healing anyways then just make the ones that do hit harder).

Finally if that much of your healing is overhealing and getting better gear (which will mainly increase your SP) will make it overheal even more then why not bring in another dps instead of a healer.


Hope you guys don't mind me poking a bit in your discussion.

[supa]

I want to add to the sustained damage part of that post. The role of most holy priests is raid healer. The raid damage is either going to be sustained or spiky. That will change the value of renew on most fights. Adding haste during the fights where there is sustained damage to the raid is useful to keep people at high life levels. However in situations where there is lots of damage spikes to the raid, the SP becomes a much better throughput stat with FH to pump up dps fast, which in turn procs serendipity which increases the speed which PoH s cast. Also, CoH also will benefit more from SP as it already is not a high power heal.

[Kelesti]

Except, Supa, in times of "raid spikes", you generally don't need to be casting Flash Heal for Serendipity. Having the buff is one thing, but when the spike comes, at any time, you cast Prayer. Haste wins here alot more than having your Prayer hit harder, whether or not you waste the time and mana to cast a buff.

[Flogging Molly]

Well yes and no, more so no. Say your PoH hits .1 to .2 seconds faster then mine does but hits each target for 2k less, does that nominal change in the cast time really make a big difference? No. Based off just personal experiance, Not going into math for several reasons, biggest one being I'm too lazy to do it atm. hitting 5 targets @< 20% health for 7k-10k is better then hitting 5 targets @< 20% health for 5-7k .2 secs faster. Then you also have the option to get a CoH in there, again the extra SP is better then haste.

Healing the raid 1/3 their life a fraction of a second sooner is by no means better the healing a raid 1/2 their life a fraction of a second later. Holy is generally reactionary, and as such if you can respond to massive AoE damage fast that fraction of a second is not important, if you however have lag issues or just are slow at reacting to begin with then yeah, haste can be better.

On a side note I personally believe balance is the best option. It's nice to see 4k Renew tics or 15k PoM's but if you have too much SP a good chunk of your spells will overheal, as I sadly am facing on a regular basis. I generally feel you should get haste to the instant GCD cap then after that go for whatever. I wouldn't go out of my way to get haste gear if I can get just as good crit gear with my DKP.

[Kelesti]

Except, the amount of haste needed to drop the cast of a Prayer by .1 to .2 seconds is trivial, especially compared to the amount of SP needed to gem to boost your Prayer by an additional 20%.

Yes, SP is better than Haste for Circle, and for Mending. But healing for 40% of their life (from prayer) a half second sooner is better than healing for 44% a half second later.

The instant GCD cap of haste is just over 1200 rating. So no, it's not really an achievable goal to go for. You can choose to gear for the cap during Bloodlust but that does nobody any good, considering the fraction of the time that Bloodlust is up of a fight.

And crit is just bad to go out of your way for.

[supa]

So get a balance where you heal hard and fast as opposed to just one, in a nice way to sum it up.

[harky]

Except, the amount of haste needed to drop the cast of a Prayer by .1 to .2 seconds is trivial, especially compared to the amount of SP needed to gem to boost your Prayer by an additional 20%.

.1 seconds off PoH = 5.4 +20 haste gems. A 3.3% gain. Not sure where 20% game from.

For the same cost you would gain 124 SP. 124 SP would add around 340 healing overall, or 408 glyphed. Haste and SP are closer than you'd like to believe. Especially when you consider that you're talking about haste's usage on a spell that is not generally chain cast, where haste holds its strongest benefit.

[Kelesti]

.1 seconds off PoH = 5.4 +20 haste gems. A 3.3% gain. Not sure where 20% game from.

For the same cost you would gain 124 SP. 124 SP would add around 340 healing overall, or 408 glyphed. Haste and SP are closer than you'd like to believe. Especially when you consider that you're talking about haste's usage on a spell that is not generally chain cast, where haste holds its strongest benefit.

I do. Trust me. But he's comparing the 0.1-0.2 second benefit to suddenly a whopping 2-3k difference in output on a Prayer, and that's just not anywhere near close to actual itemisation.

[harky]

Utter fail then. Just reread his post. An extra 2k per target is what he implied. That's nearly 4k SP.

[Flogging Molly]

If your raid is taking so much damage all the time that you have to spam PoH regularly that it's even an issue you're guilds bad, your dps is bad, your healers are bad or all 3 things are true. I'm ignoring tanks under the assumption we were talking about raid healing. Flash heal is going to be close to GCD with most end game gear on even without trying to stack haste so it's not a concern. Renew PoM and CoH don't benifit past GCD, that's been established. that leaves GH (lol?) and PoH.

So Kelesti is your arguement is based off of having one spell benifit past near in combat GCD levels of haste? If that's the case bravo for having so many people just blindly agree with you, that's actually impressive. BTW reread what I said. I never said I would go out of my way for a crit piece. I said if it's just as good I would use DKP on it.

SP is bad, but landing your Prayers (both with and without Serendipity, yes it's worth it to cast at zero stacks) faster is a net gain.
[...]haste is just as important as Spell Power.

Really? Sp is bad eh? That's the first I've ever heard a Priest say that. I don't like to call people out but sorry that's the single dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on any message board anywhere. I actually almost feel bad for you on that post so I left in a valid point from end.

Also you pointed to my exapmle, which I will admit is off, and instead put in your own example...which is also off, GJ. The net gain from stacking SP is better then the net gain from stacking Haste. Both our example aren't right, I will admit to mine being more off then yours, but at the same time your example would only call for a small overall loss in SP to a large gain in Haste, again skewing the figures you put out.

Haste is great and I agree that Holy priests need to get as much as they can of it. Is it so ground breaking though that you should stack it? Not a chance. Should you get it on gear, yes as much as possible. Personally I'd rather raid with good raiders that don't stand in the fire enough to warrent having to use machine gun PoH's. That could just be me. Your arguement that "landing your Prayers (both with and without Serendipity, yes it's worth it to cast at zero stacks) faster is a net gain." is only true assuming you need to cast PoH over and over to keep the raid up. Now going under the assumption that your raid is smart enough to NOT make the healers job as hard as possible I would much rather land a big heal less often since isn't anything in ICC so far that even remotely resembles Ignis. It's funny cause you don't OOM as much that way too. Kinda win win.

[Kelesti]

If your raid is taking so much damage all the time that you have to spam PoH regularly that it's even an issue you're guilds bad, your dps is bad, your healers are bad or all 3 things are true. I'm ignoring tanks under the assumption we were talking about raid healing. Flash heal is going to be close to GCD with most end game gear on even without trying to stack haste so it's not a concern.

5% haste from Wrath of Air. 3% from Improved Moonkin/Swift Retribution. That gives you 8.15% haste. Sure, with Bloodlust you're close to GCD cap, if you're not trying to stack haste. But if you're not prioritising it over, say, crit (which you yourself put as a higher benefit), how do you even get that?

Renew PoM and CoH don't benifit past GCD, that's been established. that leaves GH (lol?) and PoH.

Hey, a priest who doesn't cast a spell that may or may not be needed isn't worth the spot. I've said that, time and time again. Greater's output is huge, and tank damage still is huge. Should you be on a tank full time? Hell no. You still bounce your mendings off them to get them in the game faster, a clutch Greater is no difference. Only retards truly think otherwise.

So Kelesti is your arguement is based off of having one spell benifit past near in combat GCD levels of haste? If that's the case bravo for having so many people just blindly agree with you, that's actually impressive. BTW reread what I said. I never said I would go out of my way for a crit piece. I said if it's just as good I would use DKP on it.

Except, crit isn't "just as good". It takes more itemisation to get a 1% crit effect as it does to get a 1% haste effect. Even when the ratings are equal (which is rare), it could be itemisation into Int/Spirit, or even a little higher Spell Power (some of the icecrown budgeting is a little weird. o.O)

Really? Sp is bad eh? That's the first I've ever heard a Priest say that. I don't like to call people out but sorry that's the single dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on any message board anywhere. I actually almost feel bad for you on that post so I left in a valid point from end.

Forgive me. I was in the Canadian Rockies this weekend, and haven't slept much since. That was supposed to be "badass", which fits the context. But no, I'm not going to go back and edit it to say "no ur rong". I'm not infallible.

Also you pointed to my exapmle, which I will admit is off, and instead put in your own example...which is also off, GJ. The net gain from stacking SP is better then the net gain from stacking Haste.

Spell Power affects everything. True. Haste affects your heavy hitters, and your GCD's. True. Saying you are nearly GCD capped without going out of your way to stack haste? False. In my totally awesome ~710 haste rating, fully raidbuffed (without Bloodlust) I'm only at 31.8%. Last I checked, GCD is 50%.

Haste is great and I agree that Holy priests need to get as much as they can of it. Is it so ground breaking though that you should stack it? Not a chance. Should you get it on gear, yes as much as possible.

This is contradictory.

Personally I'd rather raid with good raiders that don't stand in the fire enough to warrent having to use machine gun PoH's.

Machine Gun PoH's, faster GCD's all around, faster applications of Renew (faster Empowereds), the occasional Greater.

That could just be me. Your arguement that "landing your Prayers (both with and without Serendipity, yes it's worth it to cast at zero stacks) faster is a net gain." is only true assuming you need to cast PoH over and over to keep the raid up. Now going under the assumption that your raid is smart enough to NOT make the healers job as hard as possible I would much rather land a big heal less often since isn't anything in ICC so far that even remotely resembles Ignis.

Your argument of Spell Power is assuming you can get a proper amount of healing done where you get people from low damage to 95% in one perfectly timed heal that doesn't interrupt anybody else's flow, because they're still spending the mana you are.

It's funny cause you don't OOM as much that way too. Kinda win win.

If you're finishing the average fight with a mana bar above 20%, you have too much regen and not enough output. Or you're bringing too many healers, which is a similar point to be made.

And as for this:

I would much rather land a big heal less often since isn't anything in ICC so far that even remotely resembles Ignis.

No. Because Ignis is in Ulduar. And the thing is, haste was depreciated on a fight like Ignis, because a) it would never kill anyone, and b) it was guaranteed a cooldown to not hit again, thus you were guaranteed time to heal everyone up to full. And slowly at that.

Machine gunning all your spells (even your instants) on a fight like Rotface (kiters, diseased targets, tank), Festergut (you shouldn't stop casting here, ever), or Putricide is better than not. Sure, you go less OoM in LoLwer Spire. But I pull my weight in Plagueworks, where real damage happens. If you start doing 25's, or stop getting carried in one that you're in, feel free to let me know.

[Mosaes]

For me being holy is all about being balanced.

Sure, haste is a nice stat for overall throughput but it isnt THE stat. It becomes less usefull when using instants in comparison to PoH or GH or when coming close to the GCD.

Crit is good but like already postet is basically just an increased chance of luck. However the difference between 25% and 35% is noticable in both regen and throughput. Proccing Surge of light and the +50% reg buff is essencial for many playstyles.

Spellpower´s advantage is that it increases the throughput on ALL healing spells, instant or cast. Quicker spell however gain less benefit from it and it increases overall overheal.

To summarize, none of the stats come without a compromise making stacking a single stat useless. Haste is bad without proper spellpwr and crit, Crit is bad without spell and haste ....

Personally I Gem SP in Red, SP/Spirit in Blue and SP/Int in Yellow since 90% of the time any socketbonus is a good bonus because it increases overall stats. (ususally int+reg Meta , recently Spell+ 2% int because of coming close sustaining mana and 1500+ int)

Armory below

[Kelesti]

It becomes less usefull when using instants in comparison to PoH or GH or when coming close to the GCD.

Honestly, tell me how everyone keeps talking about this GCD cap? You don't get Borrowed Time, so the 25% isn't a factor for Holy, have people forgotten that?

Without raid buffs, one would need 1639 haste rating.
Even with Wrath of Air and Swift Retribution/Improved Moonkin, you need 38.7% from outside sources. Sure, Bloodlust is an outside source, but its uptime is limited, and not usually coinciding with healing output intensity (DPS burn phases have nothing to do with healer stress).

So, not counting Bloodlust, it takes 1269 (1268.85) rating, to reach the cap. Can someone honestly tell me where the hell people are getting this "when coming close to the GCD"? Because, realistically, it's not happening.

[rubberbands]

Renew PoM and CoH don't benifit past GCD

Honestly, tell me how everyone keeps talking about this GCD cap?
[...]
not counting Bloodlust, it takes 1269 (1268.85) rating, to reach the cap. Can someone honestly tell me where the fuck people are getting this "when coming close to the GCD"? Because, realistically, it's not happening.

This so much. There is alot of talk about haste "caps" without defining what the "cap" actually is, or with a notion of where this cap is at. Like what Harky said, it's 1269.

Hey, a priest who doesn't cast a spell that may or may not be needed isn't worth the spot. I've said that, time and time again. Greater's output is huge, and tank damage still is huge. Should you be on a tank full time? Hell no. You still bounce your mendings off them to get them in the game faster, a clutch Greater is no difference. Only retards truly think otherwise.

This also, although your healer officers may feel differently.

Also of note is that I would expect holy (and Proh) to become more useful come BQL.

[Flogging Molly]

Machine gunning all your spells (even your instants) on a fight like Rotface (kiters, diseased targets, tank), Festergut (you shouldn't stop casting here, ever), or Putricide is better than not. Sure, you go less OoM in LoLwer Spire. But I pull my weight in Plagueworks, where real damage happens. If you start doing 25's, or stop getting carried in one that you're in, feel free to let me know.

Ok so what you're saying is you spam spells when it isn't needed on fights that don't have a lot of hard continual raid damage? What's your over healing, like 50%? Plaugeworks isn't healing intensive, unless you or your raid make it that way. H-ToGH is harder to heal then anything in ICC so far. You should learn to heal smarter not harder. I'm looking forward to Cata when people with your healing style won't be able to cope anymore due to mana issues. No I don't mean Haste stackers, I mean spammers for no apparent reason.

My guild uses 4-6 healers depending on the fight, we don't carry people. Have you even attempted Prof yet? You made no mention of him. I'll assume you haven't made P3 at all. His P3 with all 3 tank stacks getting high is way more healing intensive then anything else in ICC. You seem to not be able to back up anything you say with any solid responses, just the usual "I'm right your wrong and I'll flame till everyone agrees with me". Saying the same things over and over and not backing it up with any proof doesn't make you right.

BTW you need to balance your gear, all of it. Having a healthy amount of SP Haste Crit and Regen is the best way to put out more EHPS. Don't be a bad that just haste stacks to try to get near the 50% mark you'll never hit. Sure you can cast your instants all of .1 seconds faster then everyone else, Lag and Lat make it a moot point. I'd rather have my delicious 4k+ SP and less haste, be able to keep the tank up if our pally dies or pick up extra slack on the raid if one of the raid healers die. I would like more haste, I'm sure everyone would. Hitting 700ish haste would be ideal imo. I wouldn't scrifice as much SP as you do to do it though.

[Kelesti]

Ok so what you're saying is you spam spells when it isn't needed on fights that don't have a lot of hard continual raid damage?

You mean, you don't tank assist when raid damage is poor but tank damage is high? Sure you do it worse than the other classes (or even your class but the other spec), but it's healing output, instead of standing there with your thumb up your ass.

Plaugeworks isn't healing intensive, unless you or your raid make it that way. H-ToGH is harder to heal then anything in ICC so far.

It's more challenging than LOLwer spire, and about on par with Beasts-25 actually. More tank damage than anything else, with a few surprises here and there. I wouldn't say ToGC was harder, but I wouldn't necessarily say Plagueworks is easy.

You should learn to heal smarter not harder.

Smarter use of my mana bar means it's not sitting unused. But okay.

I'm looking forward to Cata when people with your healing style won't be able to cope anymore due to mana issues. No I don't mean Haste stackers, I mean spammers for no apparent reason.

It's not "for no apparent reason". It's using my tools appropriate to the particular output. And as for the Cata style, you mean like Vanilla/TBC where you did nothing but stopcasting? Did that. Current healing meta is tuned to the 6 minute encounter (with few exceptions, but most often phase changes give regen).

Those who fail to adapt will often cite the changes as breaking and will QQ and reroll. Haven't done it since I rolled my Priest and the death of all things was fortold in 2.4 (omg we're not in sunwell!!!), in 3.0 (circle cooldown), 3.1(regen), and 3.2(prayer). Still here. And I'll adapt again. Those who can't, won't. Meh.

Have you even attempted Prof yet? You made no mention of him. I'll assume you haven't made P3 at all.

I've made several references to him, few within this post. I haven't killed him on 25, and I openly admit that, and have done so repeatedly.

His P3 with all 3 tank stacks getting high is way more healing intensive then anything else in ICC. You seem to not be able to back up anything you say with any solid responses, just the usual "I'm right your wrong and I'll flame till everyone agrees with me".

It is healing intensive, and through healing intensity faster heals is better than heals pretending to be 400 points more effective. Sure, you save Bloodlust for that phase, but what do you do when BL falls off? Stick to non GCD capped Instants?

Saying the same things over and over and not backing it up with any proof doesn't make you right.

BTW you need to balance your gear, all of it. Having a healthy amount of SP Haste Crit and Regen is the best way to put out more EHPS. Don't be a bad that just haste stacks to try to get near the 50% mark you'll never hit.

I know I won't. I don't try it. Even if I did, I wouldn't reach it. And I keep a nice chunk of crit on my gear, and still gem SP, SP/Haste, and my blue gems are transitional between SP/Spirit and raw SP.

Sure you can cast your instants all of .1 seconds faster then everyone else, Lag and Lat make it a moot point. I'd rather have my delicious 4k+ SP and less haste

4k SP is just as achievable as haste cap. Oh wait, you mean at the expense of every other stat. Also still not achievable.

be able to keep the tank up if our pally dies or pick up extra slack on the raid if one of the raid healers die.

4k wouldn't help you more than having your heals actually land somewhere near fast enough to keep them up between hits. Or move between targets faster for the output. Stronger heals mean less (generally) at that point, having them there as fast as possible is (generally) better.

I would like more haste, I'm sure everyone would. Hitting 700ish haste would be ideal imo. I wouldn't scrifice as much SP as you do to do it though.

You don't have 4k SP. I know this. And I don't sacrifice that much SP to get haste (oh no, yellow gem slots, anything but that, when I'm regen capped!).

Also:

His P3 with all 3 tank stacks getting high is way more healing intensive then anything else in ICC.

Plaugeworks isn't healing intensive, unless you or your raid make it that way. H-ToGH is harder to heal then anything in ICC so far.

What? BS. Even you said so. Shut up, and get over yourself.

[Mosaes]

Honestly, tell me how everyone keeps talking about this GCD cap? You don't get Borrowed Time, so the 25% isn't a factor for Holy, have people forgotten that?

for the record : I never said anything about the haste cap. My implication was simply that when FH , binding Heal and hasted GH are moving towards the GCD it becomes less usefull. When these 1.5 sec base casts are at 1.1 seconds further haste loses value compared to SP which scales linear. 1SP will give as much benefit at 2k SP as at 3k SP while haste will lose after FH moves close to GCD. Also haste is effected by reaction time, server lag or situation while other stats such as SP will allways increase the Heal/mana ratio and overall heal.

Like stated before: Any stat is important for Priests simply because of the wide variety of spells and talents that use them. Increasing throughput therefore can only be truly achievend by increasing ALL stats in a balanced matter.