[Resto] Raid Spot

[Burden]

It seems the whole shaman class is having issues with this sort of thing Normally its 1 shaman with the whole who cares what spec he is we need bloodlust.
I have been and seen several guilds that just dont bother taking more then 1 shaman of any spec to a raid cause well whatever a shaman can do someone else can either do better or just as well but with raid utility.

A perfect example of this includes:

Enhancement: DKs have virtually the same amount of buffs they do execpt on aoe fights do about 4k more dps... Which include a lot of fights in the whole of wotlk nevermind ICC. Give this with some of the worst gear depenency issues in any class and its a recipe for disaster.
Elemental: Nice dps if you know the rotation but unfortunately because of stupid little issues which shouldnt matter they lose lots of dps.
On many occasions I have heard shamans complaining about having Moonkins in the group because it stops there buff from working which means 10% extra damage for them.
Also yes they have WoA and other nice goodies but in the perfect 10 man group or even in a decent 25 man group they are overlooked for pure dps which can pump out largely more dps.
Resto: Lets get something straight first resto shamans dont suck, what sucks is there lack of actual useful raid utility (Unless there that 1 shaman for BL) also whatever a shaman can do someone can do better, they have no area they excel in.
Its the same reason warriors dont take agility as a main stat for instance its useful that it gives a little crit... but its actual use is so little that taking Strength is just more useful being in the middle and a jack of all trades master of none really does put them in a terrible position After all ask yourself something which would you trust more to do his job in a ideal world where every player was equal? I know it would be a resto druid for aoe anyday and a holy priest or a Holy pala or a disc priest for single target.

But hey what do I know only been playing shamans since release.

[Spongy]

Oh yeah cause everyone is more than 12.5 yards apart and smart heals are always bad. The ability to heal a tank okish and heal raid okish at same time mmm. I also think your underestimating manatide like alot. Saying the fact chainheal bounce range is bad is serious fail. Out of the 7 fights in icc atm thers only 1 moment really where you chainheal becomes worse and thats on lord at bone storm but then u just chain melee that running around after him.

Shamans are fine. Bad players are bad

[Dado]

Do that mean sub-par resto shamans play this game?

We are very well-rounded single target/aoe healers. Shamans can very easily top HPS meters with very minimal overheal if done properly.

Someone said we lack HoT spells. Serious? Healing Stream/Earthliving Proc/Earth Shield/ Riptide. That's 4, what more do you want?

Learn to utilize your class. Resto is fine.

[marv3llous]

Why are half the comments missing the point of OP and going down the route of "shamans are fine l2p" ? Yes, they are ok, we know how2p. Point was that they dont stand out and thus their raid spots have dropped lately as there is no point to bring more than one of each spec (or just 1 ele/1 resto as DKs can cover for enha easily) to the raid while other hybrids can get extra spots easily as they are more flexible.

[Burden]

I'd just like to quote something the above poster said:
---->
Oh yeah cause everyone is more than 12.5 yards apart and smart heals are always bad. The ability to heal a tank okish and heal raid okish at same time mmm. I also think your underestimating manatide like alot. Saying the fact chainheal bounce range is bad is serious fail. Out of the 7 fights in icc atm thers only 1 moment really where you chainheal becomes worse and thats on lord at bone storm but then u just chain melee that running around after him. <----

Clearly you have never done Saurfang or Gunship or virtually any ToC boss, lets just recap here for example in the Saurfang fight it is mandatory to stand apart from each other to the distance of 10-12 yards.
Also Mana tides actual value is pretty underplayed I admit but it doesnt give enough to one person or to enough people.
I would want an innervate over a manatide anyday.
Also being good at nothing but being somewhat good at something is never enough for anything just look at it logically someone that can keep constant healing on the entire raid or someone that can keep constant healing up some of the time...?

Also as for the "Fail healer is fail" mentality you are bringing here your glorious indepth message says all I need to say to be fair.

Case dismissed.

[Quillu]

Our current ICC Setup is:

Holypaladin
Disc Priest
Holy Priest
Resto Druid
2x Resto Shaman

We found 1 Resto Druid always doing better than 1 Resto Shaman, but when we compared the Output of 1 Resto Druid + 2 Resto Shaman and 2 Resto Druids + 1 Resto Shaman we couldn't quite find any differenes. Whe then thought we'd just go with Manatide, wich pretty much lets our Healing Group spamm through any Encounter there is or will be. Haven't tried 2 Holypriests yet though, since we got only one strong one. (2 Discs sucks obv, and 2 Paladins are not required because tank healing is pretty single target, if 1 Beacon + Hots/Shields is not enough a shaman will help, shaman tankheal is in noway behind paladin tankheal if there's only damage going into one tank)

[Thorold]

Earth friggin shield......

[bigjenk]

I would say shamans are alright they are just the least necessary healer of any of the classes/specs

Holy priest= superior raid heal and prom is on such a short cd it is almost like earth shield for a good priest.

Disc priest= Effective added life on top of health pool with shields and best reactive heal

Resto druids= Heal tanks better than shaman and best aoe heals.

Paladin= wtf so much better at tank healing than any other class and can also push out quite a bit of raid healing on single tank encounters through beacon on tank and glyph of hl splash.


Not saying they should be benched but if i had to pick one type of healer to go without it would be shaman if bl and woa totem and wisdom were covered.

[Cayleypriest]

Right now, our ICC setup is usually 1 of each healing type in the group. What I mean is 1 Holy Pally, 1 Disc Priest, 1 Holy Priest, 1 Resto Druid, and 1 Resto Shaman. We run these same five healers for every boss encounter we've done so far, and have cleared all 7 bosses just fine. We also run with an elemental shaman in our DPS core as well, who's not performing as well as he should, but that's a different issue. Our Resto Shaman battles our Resto Druid night in and night out without a problem and the Druid outgears the Shaman by almost a full tier level. Moral of the story: Resto Shamans are fine. All of the healing classes are fine. Working as intended.

[Burden]

Yes but you are missing the point :P There only AoE heal they have is chain heal which means on fights such as lets say Northrend beasts (Yes I know its easy blah blah) where you have to keep bosses apart doesnt really cut it so suddenly they are a aoe healer since they can no longer do there job of healing both tanks like a pala can.
But in the very same encounter its not unknown for there to be seperate groups of people so lets see here do I heal 4 melee with the debuff who have also been knocked back or do I heal the casters which have taken damage too?

In a resto shamans eyes thats an immediate response to chain heal which saddly wont get all of them... or you can employ one resto druid who will keep rejuv up the whole time and do it for you.
So who would you prefer? Someone that can continually heal or someone that heals in bursts sometimes managing to heal up to 4 people.

Also the fact is like already stated this is about all shamans in general not just resto, the fact is I normally play enhancement and at this point I am being superceded by a class that I simply cannot in any shape or form compete with.
I thought it was L2P issues so I sat down and worked my ass off to get the best I could after playing a shaman since release and most of that time being enhancement (Like 95%) I was quite saddened to see anything I could do they could do better.
And to the nae sayers clearly you have never done fights such as Anub 25 hardmode.

Hey at the end of the day I know plenty of shamans who have rerolled to there respective class that caused there demise and they now do better then ever.

After all have you ever seen an enhancement shaman do 12k dps on anub hardmode? :P Maybe on a private server.

So if there are any blizzard people watching this as doubtful as it may seems, I only have 1 thing to say stop this removing classes identity crap and give every class back its unique reason for existing since you dont seem to be able to balance this burden...

[Arganaut]

"Only bad players, not bad classes get dropped." QFT

"Metres.. mean.. nothing.." QFT, but they are a good indicator.

You cannot have tools for every encounter and got to accept other classes may be better than Shamans at certain times. I think Shamans are incredibly good Healers and can perform well when given any job. You just have to accept that other Healers may be able to do certain tasks more efficiently.

I agree with the comment that Resto is lacking some differentiators and currently the only real one is Mana Tide. I think the class has a whole does have uniqueness in Hero/BL and our Totems but the problem is, any tree can provide Hero/BL; and lesser versions of totems.

Enhance has spirit wolves / Elementals and Elemental has it's Elementals. I'd like to see something for Resto, maybe making Healing Stream more exciting rather than a static mini shadow priest with vampiric embrace, spawn some little wisps or something that fly around the raid protecting them / healing them in someway.

[Alaska]

I feel, as many in this thread, that shaman needs more raid utility. We need something that we excel at rather then being some hybrid of a holy priest and a paladin.

[Deathshock-M]

Personally would like to see more raid healing options for shaman than Chain Heal, or Lesser Healing Wave.
Chain Heal is in a good spot for me, love it and works amazing in most situations
How if a fight is not chain heal friendly I feel resto shamans suffer more than another class.

Have quick two thoughts on how to fix it:

1) New Spell: Healing Nova - the nova spell dps shamans got is great and a similar healing option could be just that resto shamans need.

2) Imp. AA: LHW Spam just isn't powerful enough to account as a effective raid healing option a talent or glyph option for AA could give it the extra kick it needs. Ex: Glyph - AA provides an additional heal for 15% of the original heal

[Deleted]

Personally i would love a healing elemental. Maybe working like the current fire elemental but rather than having an AoE damage, give it a 10-15 yard healing AoE, would be seriously cool. Effectively giving us a basic beacon of light, but with a bit more fun.

[Yzyz]

Personally i would love a healing elemental. Maybe working like the current fire elemental but rather than having an AoE damage, give it a 10-15 yard healing AoE, would be seriously cool. Effectively giving us a basic beacon of light, but with a bit more fun.

The elemental attacks the heal target and instead of damage, it heals him and all players surrounding for x amount. The Elemental would look like the lightning/air elementals too but greenish.

that would be pretty bad ass but not likely.

[Deleted]

sounds like the problem exsists between the chair and the keyboard

hps means nothing, healing the correct ppl at the correct time is everything

Also, this quote above me is completely right.

Shamans are in a decent place right now, if your doing bad on the meters its probaly because your healing badly, not because of class faults.

[Azyoulike]

I think a big part of the problem is Riptide. That one spell has too many tasks loaded onto it. On a fight where CH is weak, we want to use it every CD in order to get maximal uptime on Tidal Waves. But fights where CH is weak often are fights that involve movement, so we want it to be available when we have to move.

Priests and druids have a selection of instants they can use, some with CDs, some without. Pallies have only one instant but it's only used for movement, they don't need it to support throughput - in fact it's a strict throughput loss. Ironically the new pally 4T-10 bonus is not dissimilar to Tidal Waves, and it's not a coincidence that current BiS lists for holydin tend to recommend just taking the 2-set bonus.

The dependency on Riptide/Tidal Waves is a big part of our problem as tank healers though that's a more complicated issue. In order to activate my high burst mode I'm forced to use low-burst spells. This is a bit like holy priests needing to use FHeal to empower hasted GHeals, and the exact opposite of disco using high burst shields to empower high burst Penance+GHeal combos. Or the ultimate in power, a pally HolyLight reducing the cast time of the next HolyLight.

Shaman aren't horribly underpowered, they work well in 25 and can work well in 10s when paired with an healer such as druid or pally that has a massive raw HPS surplus.

[Esrgoode]

Clearly you have never done Saurfang or Gunship or virtually any ToC boss, lets just recap here for example in the Saurfang fight it is mandatory to stand apart from each other to the distance of 10-12 yards.

virtually any ToC boss
sorry but what ARE you talking about.

Marrowgar, most groups bunch together for the boned acheievement, and during bone storm.. most people are running in the general same direction.. Ch works wonders.

Whisperer. CH when D&D droped, CH works wonders when healing the sides, CH works wonders in P3 when a frost thingy gets through.

Gun ship.. most groups send melee to kill the frost mage.. guess what: CH works wonders there, also the boat is not that big.. its amazing how many people are within 12 yrds of each other.

Saurfang.. even though this is our waekest fight.. if you are caster heavy its quite often they invade each other's 10yrd bubble.. fight machanics and perfect strategy do not normally equal what actually hapopens.. CH works better here that you give it credit.

rotface.. everyone is bunched up his arse.. hmm CH winner

festergut.. most people are bunched up his backside and constant raid wise AoE dmg..hmmm ch winner, especially if tied to tank healing.. bouced off the tank.

putricide..most of the raid moves as a unit.. no "bubble" requirements.. CH is good here..

so.. pls tell me exactly WHICH fights does CH suck so bad its useless.

sorry but fail healers are fail.

[Azyoulike]

Marrowgar, most groups bunch together for the boned acheievement, and during bone storm.. most people are running in the general same direction.. Ch works wonders.

Except that really the only people taking damage are the tanks - who are out of range of melee CH jumps. The boned targets, who may or may not be close enough for CH jumps and people catching the fire. Who tend to need spot healing. During bonestorm people are all taking damage, but are too spread out for CH. This is not a great CH fight.

Whisperer. CH when D&D droped, CH works wonders when healing the sides, CH works wonders in P3 when a frost thingy gets through.

I'll agree with the frost bolt volley, but by the time the CH hits after D&D people have already spread out. It's an ok fight for CH.

rotface.. everyone is bunched up his arse.. hmm CH winner

But mostly they don't need healing. Critical targets are the kiter, the tank and the person/people with the debuff. CH simply isn't going to reliably heal them for enough. Back to spot healing again.

festergut.. most people are bunched up his backside and constant raid wise AoE dmg..hmmm ch winner, especially if tied to tank healing.. bouced off the tank.

When the aura is up CH is good here, when the aura is off and tank is getting stomped CH is weak.

I wouldn't say that CH is useless in ICC, or even close to useless on any fight except maybe Saurfang, but it's not incredibly strong on any of the current fights. Festergut is the best for it so far, and it's only good there on the easy part. Frankly a druid will manage the changeover from raid spam to tank spam and back more smoothly.