Frustrated with SLOW SLOW startup tank rotation

[Praxis]

I'm clear the tooltip says it produces a high amount of threat...but what are the exact mechanics? Is it threat + damagethreat or amplification of damagethreat? If it a single spike once they touch it or threat ticks as long as they are standing in it?

As far as I'm aware DnD has a percentage modifier on its damage-based threat. I'm not sure of the percent, though.

[JP4MMO]

Oh, I didn't think about insta-BloodBoil, for the same "no diseases is heresy" reason you said. I'll have to check the range but, unlike Howling Blast that only points forward and would miss any mobs behind me, BloodBoil should hit everyone if I run thru a group to the back mob and drop D&D there.

Sorta like an Icy Touch pull, but AoE instead of single target. I'll have to try that. Facepull whoever is in front, run past, get about to the middle of the pack, BloodBoil, then when I hit the back drop D&D and begin IT+PS, etc.

Good idea, I'll try it and see how it works out.

[taishar68]

As I think has been stated, use of DnD/BB will help build fast threat; threat is keyed to damage but certain moves generate more threat than others, for tanking purposes, like DnD, RS, etc.

I was able to hold aggro as a very undergeared Blood tank in a normal ToC 5-man off of two 4K dpsers; if you are in one of the new instances, everyone expects you to hold aggro right from the get-go, so you won't find too much sympathy from people when you want them to wait, even if they should.

Some other things that might help; using the Armsman Enchant, which adds 2% threat; you shouldn't really need it, but if you are having trouble, every little bit helps;

Make sure all of your spells are max rank; sometimes, especially with macros, you can wind up using a lower level spell or attack that will of course not deal as much damage and conversely, deal less threat.

I usually DG the caster of a group into my DnD area, and I attack that player first; I know sharp DPSer's will target that caster first also and burn it down while the AoE is working.

Hope it helps, good luck.

[Moadebe]

Oh, I didn't think about insta-BloodBoil, for the same "no diseases is heresy" reason you said. I'll have to check the range but, unlike Howling Blast that only points forward and would miss any mobs behind me, BloodBoil should hit everyone if I run thru a group to the back mob and drop D&D there.

Sorta like an Icy Touch pull, but AoE instead of single target. I'll have to try that. Facepull whoever is in front, run past, get about to the middle of the pack, BloodBoil, then when I hit the back drop D&D and begin IT+PS, etc.

Good idea, I'll try it and see how it works out.

No, Drop DnD first as you are running in. Use it kinda like your IT pulling, but instead of using IT you are using DnD. As they are all running to you (you are the one pulling right?) center them on the DnD and BB, then IT + PS your focus mob. By that time your next blood rune should be up soon and you can pes and then BB soon after that. Do NOT just run in BB and then drop DnD......you will lose agro. DnD should be your puller and not IT. If there is a mob at the back who is a caster Death grip him in. Dont just keep running though. Use Dnd......its threat is not something to laugh at.

[Praxis]

Howling Blast ... only points forward and would miss any mobs behind me

This is incorrect. Howling Blast hits any target within a 10-yard radius of its target. This includes mobs behind you if they are within 10 yards of the mob you target with HB.

Also, a quick bit of digging came up with this information from Tankspot: As of 3.0.8 (yes, that's the latest info I saw, meaning it probably hasn't been changed), Death and Decay causes threat equal to 190% of the damage it causes.

EDIT: That 190% isn't including the threat modifier from Frost Presence, either. So DnD's threat is equal to (damage * 1.9) * 1.45. Whatever that comes out to. Too tired to do math.

[Nythiz]

I think it in the end comes pretty close to DnD with Frost Presence having a 3x threat modifier. So If it ticks for 700 each second, you gain 2100 threat on all mobs in it each second.

If you want to stay blood/unholy (not sure what spec you are) than dropping a DnD and then PS+IT+Pestilence should be more than enough. You wouldn't even need bloodtap + bloodboil for most part. If you still lose aggro you can indeed also do a bloodboil first before using pestilence, and getting the death and decay glyph helps a lot too. Like i said if you improve the damage by 20%, you also improve the threat by 20%.

If this all doesn't work out, I'm personally always tanking with frost. And by using the DnD glyph + HB glyph even hardly any dps pull off me, the only one has been our guilds arms warrior, but i can generally get it back under control pretty quick.
With a frost build you can just use: HB > DnD > BB and all mobs are stuck on your for a good while. (Reason i do HB first is because then DnD gets the tundra stalker modifier, which is another 15% extra threat). After that i use HB whenever its off cooldown or whenever rime is up. Obliterate the other FU runes for more howling blasts, bloodboil every blood rune. Unless the trash is harder (usually in raids) then i sometimes put down another DnD.

Death and Decay is by far the best ability for threat though, the only problem is that it needs a few seconds to really get those mobs secured on you. However no healer should ever be able to pull threat off you when mobs are standing in a DnD, EVER.
Also probably 90% of the performance in keeping aggro is decided at the pull. A bad pull will lose you aggro, a good pull wont.

If the group is all melee (you can check for mana although usually this comes with experience), you just run in and place you DnD just between you and the first mob so that you meet eachother inside the DnD.
If there are casters, you can put one right in front of you and deathgrip the caster in. The other melee will follow. Or you can simply run in, although keep in mind that casters tend to just stand still, so you have to place the DnD on top of them, if there are melee around the caster that often means they will start running towards you before you reach the caster sometimes creating a weird tanking situation, but you solve this with experience.

If there is more than one casters, i generally try to run to one and drop a DnD, and Deathgrip the second in. Possibly strangulate a 3th (this is where i use blood tap usually).

A good pull makes or breaks the game. DnD is your best aggro ability, so learn mob behaviour and you have pretty much won the fight for threat.

[kaelleria]

DnD->IT->PS>Pest (by this time RS has already happened at least once)->Tab RS->Tab RS-> Tab RS->HS->Tab HS-> Tab HS....

As a blood DK you cannot sit on one target with you thumb up your nose and expect to keep mobs of a BSing Warrior or a RoF lock.

[Stieger23]

No. Just no.

You're clearly doing something horribly wrong or a troll if you're talking about healing aggro being a problem. DnD alone, if placed properly, is more than enough to overcome MINUTES of healing aggro on otherwise untanked mobs. I will grant you that dps (warlocks in particular) can be a major challenge for blood aoe tanking, but not healers.

Here is what I do in heroics: Pull with DnD, have it set up so the front edge of the area of effect is right in front of the mobs, when I'm a few yards from the back edge of the area. I will have initial threat, they cannot run through the entire DnD without taking a tick, and I will be tanking them in the area. I have NEVER lost threat to healing aggro.

Once you've established your tanking area with DnD, DG any casters into it. THEN do IT,PS,Pest,<blood tap, bb>. If blood tap isn't available, I tab target through to see where the dps are giving me the biggest threat problems for the seconds I'm out of runes. But guess what? This is an AOE pack, you should be dodging and parrying all the time. Make sure you're using runestrike every time it's up on whatever target you have targeted, then tab off it. One huge RS will put you ahead of even the most zealous dps for the entire life of a heroic elite. The elites run out of life before the threat I've generated from diseases, DnD and a single RS is passed by the dps. The exception being a group where there's only ONE good dps and the others are totally worthless, like one doing 5k and the others doing sub-1k. Then you can have threat problems. But in any kind of balanced group no individuals threat will out-pace yours before the mob runs out of life.

Finally, I generally don't blood boil much in heroics except on the opening for a couple of reasons: if they're relatively long-lived elites, then there are usually only 3 or 4 of them, in which case HS is better. Or 2: they are a huge non-elite pack and they're dead before my runes are off CD. Yes, I will "lose threat" in the second case, but by the time the dps passes me the mob will be 1 second from dead so I don't really care. I will have tanked it for it's entire life.

[xeroxide]

This is incorrect. Howling Blast hits any target within a 10-yard radius of its target. This includes mobs behind you if they are within 10 yards of the mob you target with HB.

Also, a quick bit of digging came up with this information from Tankspot: As of 3.0.8 (yes, that's the latest info I saw, meaning it probably hasn't been changed), Death and Decay causes threat equal to 190% of the damage it causes.

EDIT: That 190% isn't including the threat modifier from Frost Presence, either. So DnD's threat is equal to (damage * 1.9) * 1.45. Whatever that comes out to. Too tired to do math.

just a quick correction if it's adding 190% and the frost pres is an additional 45% on top....
(damage * 2.9) *1.45

also, glyphed dnd is awesome for heroics as a blood dk, make sure you have morbidity as well.

[Praxis]

just a quick correction if it's adding 190% and the frost pres is an additional 45% on top....
(damage * 2.9) *1.45

also, glyphed dnd is awesome for heroics as a blood dk, make sure you have morbidity as well.

No, no, not ADDING 190%. It's EQUAL TO 190%. As in, its threat is equal to its damage PLUS 90%. I'm sorry if I was unclear.

[Dimerock]

L O f***ing L

^ this

Life is so much easier aoe tanking with my Dk than it is with my warrior.

And to try and be helpful. Death and Decay. kay?

[Dethric]

What i do, as frost is:
DnD[glyphed], HB[glyphed], BB. After that i just spam BB and hb and mobs are not glued to me, they are welded to me.

As blood i do:
DnD[glyphed], BB, IT, PS, Pest, then go crazy with BB and DS spam.

So, i could change the BB with IT+PS+Pest for blood, but that wouldnt give the same "snap" aggro, but a little longer rampup.

I've never really had any problems, more than with Warlocks acctually pulling with something like SoC+Deathcoil+petattack, or some arms warrior popping everything to charge in before me and go nuts with bladestorm.

[Vodamn]

Dude. Death and Decay should be the first thing you drop. Drop it where you plan on tanking.

Then you can spread diseases. You can even do a Blood Tap -> Blood Boil for some extra threat.

We have amazing AOE threat, in all 3 specs. The burst threat from Blood spec is a little low, but if you D&D and do some Blood Boils immediately, you should have threat to keep them for the next 10 seconds until you can apply diseases. Just use common sense.

Why would you pull without Death and Decay? That was like the first thing I gathered about DK tanking when WotLK was released and I made a level 55 DK. "AOE, high threat." Hmmm.

[Cactrot]

^ this

Life is so much easier aoe tanking with my Dk than it is with my warrior.

And to try and be helpful. Death and Decay. kay?

Really? I love tanking on my war way more because if things go wrong I don't have to worry about rune cooldowns or anything.

[eflow]

Druids don't have this problem. Charge, Cleave, done.
Warriors don't have this problem. Charge, Cleave, done.
Pally's don't have this problem. Avenger's Shield + Consecration, or even Seal of Command.
DKs don't have this problem. Death and Decay + whatever you wanna do.

fix'd.

if you are not opening with dnd you are doing something terribly wrong .. it kinda gives you time to actually do IT > PS > Pest without loosing threat.

[mhp]

fix'd.

if you are not opening with dnd you are doing something terribly wrong .. it kinda gives you time to actually do IT > PS > Pest without loosing threat.

I often open with HB, if I have BT on CD. HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB = superglued pack of mobs.

Morale of the story: if you're frost, you're not in trouble even if you have D&D on CD!

[Asheowyn]

Ehm..
Warriors don't have this problem eh? Druids? Honestly I think aoe tanking is definitely harder for those two classes at least. Compared to my warrior, my Frost DK feels like a faceroll.

I know what you mean, honestly. I'd be as frustrated as you are if I was still Blood. But DW Frost with a glyphed Howling Blast = lolaoe tanking. I never, ever, have to worry about adds.
1 Howling Blast (+ a DnD, sometimes, often not) is insane snap aggro for me, plenty in fact, and with Rime procs-a-plenty its just the best aoe tank spec ever imo.

What I often do with my DK is dual spec tankspecs, I always have a Frost tankspec, and switch the other between UH dps and Blood tank, if that extra hp really makes me look better pugging raids.....

[Stixxz]

You kidding me?

My death knight does more aoe threat than my warrior.

Get D&D glyph

Death and decay, icy touch, plague strike, pest, howling blast, blood boil.

Simple.

[Zadezz]

You kidding me?

My death knight does more aoe threat than my warrior.

Get D&D glyph

Death and decay, icy touch, plague strike, pest, howling blast, blood boil.

Simple.

I maybe wrong but i think you run out of runes about halfway through that rot? Blood or Frost spec?

DND - 1u1b1f
IT - 1f
PS - 1u
Pst - 1b = all your runes

and your left with a bit of wait :S during which time dps are catching you up. You can empower rune wep maybe but 5min cd so i like to save it for an "Oh Sht" button. Rune tap for a blood boil maybe buy you a few seconds but your lacking single target damage on Skull, while 5 dps are focusing.

I just went frost after being blood tank and raid OTing and now MT for my guild - we go undergeared to rep farm ICC 10 trash with no problems (Edit - We started to 2 days ago with little experience new guild) . Had a couple of aggro issues today which spurred me into answering this topic.

Firstly Glyph Howling blast. Spreads frost fever to all it hits. No need for icy touch. Secondly, this is just my opinon, but i think DND opening is a waste of runes. You rarely are stationary long enough to recieve full benefit, so wont be on top of it. The place the Mobs are isnt always the place u tank them and those 3 runes can be put to better use.

I go Unbreakable armour 1F > Howling Blast 1F

u now have 2 blood runes to burn to trigger the 5% damage reduction and likely a runestrike.
A plague strike and pestilence are an option or i prefer runestrke and wait for Obliterate (Glyphed) to light up and proc Rime again for another howling blast. This gives u a moment to asses, decide on what next etc. If your going to DND do it after your pull, when you have stabilised the mob. I save unholy runes for oblit and spam that to proc rime.

Basically, after having tried all DK tanking styles, Frost is top for me. Probably never post again but had to express my joy for it. Has turned me from a very shakey tank to a very confident one. I recommend it

[Suzaka712]

Not reading 3 pages of text so heres my input

Havent used frost tank since ulduar release but going blood in 3.3 i glyphed for DnD for substantial threat and talented so i can use it every pull

My pull, DnD IT PS Pest. Usually ill have a 3 second wait which is why i always use DND cause diseases just dont cut it, normally ill use Blood tap for the extra ruin, then BB.
Howling blast definetly takes a cut on your ruins though taking up 2 of them which is why im gna suggest u use Blood tap every CD on each pull that u can will help alot Also get an add on such as Cooldowns to manage your ruin Cooldowns it syncs with them to know when u have a ruin available for an ability