Warrior tank questions!

[scarzy]

1st of concidering your gearlvl as it is now, u don`t benefit that much from the mixed gems when u could hit more stm. bosses hit faster but less hard thus more EH counts.

2d aim for 26 food can help .


3d for u got most avoidance talents get revenge for more aggro its ur second highest aggro move, get glyph of heroic strike instead of devastate . and swap last stand for shield wall + talents ( i havn`t tried it but i`m going to since i hear nice feedback from it)

scarzz

[Aerials]

Firstly, any warrior saying they don't have a threat problem doesn't have a prot paladin in the raid, secondly Stamina and Avoidance tanks are utterly retarded. Effective Health tanks are they way to go, same as they were in Sunwell.

Any tank with more than 5 points in arms = threat tank. Impale + Deep Wounds = threat spec.

EH tank spec = imp demo, imp shield wall etc
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...U,RbO3Hq,11159 assuming no DPS warriors for imp shout
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...5,RbO3Hq,11159 assuming there is, just take the points from imp shouts into imp spell reflect (4% spell miss)

Glyphs: Blocking is the only glyph that you should have 100% of the time, regardless of what you are tanking. For the EH build, Shield Wall, Blocking and Devastate have been used (Devastate can be exchanged for what ever you prefer).

5 points in Shield block is retarded too, massive waste of talent points. unless you are speccing to tank Anub HM adds, the points are ALWAYS used better elsewhere.

[Wani]

So far, improved Shield wall is useless in ICC. You'd better ramp up this pitifully low dps of ours.

(honestly, I sometimes wonder if I'm playing the same game... each time a boss actually hits hard, it lasts just long enough for us to use our CDs... or do you think healers do not overheal enough already?)

[MrNutty]

I'm aware that Deep Wounds scales with AP, I know how the mechanics of my class works, unlike some people.

Deep Wounds does 48% OF YOUR WEAPON DAMAGE, you know that little stat that's on your melee damage page? Now you're average prot warrior is running 850 top end, it takes the AVERAGE weapon damage between the high and low so your low end would be around 650. So, the best you could hope for off a single Deep Wounds proc would be 360 damage, roughly

Turns out you don't know your class's mechanics :-\

This wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't in the same damn thread. Please stop giving bad advice.

Tl;Dr Deep wounds and Imp Revenge are BOTH good talents. Shelly, however, is correct, as the formula displays. Deep Wounds scales with your gear and is a passive ability, which means that if you crit with improved revenge...you apply deep wounds. Win? Win.

[seam]

So far, improved Shield wall is useless in ICC. You'd better ramp up this pitifully low dps of ours.

If you two tank Festergut it is far from useless.

When you go first you are going to get him while he is at 2 inhales eventually. During this time you can Shieldwall and last until the other tank needs to taunt it off.

Then after your debuff is done (Just under 2 minutes) your shield wall CD will be ready to go. (Assumeing that you have the glyph and improved, which you should if you have either one.) Then when you take the boss and he's at 3 Inhales you can Last Stand, then when that's about to wear off Shield wall. That will take you out of his 3 inhale phase, and ease the job of healers a lot.

As for our dps, if 1k more dps in a 10 man, or 2k in a 25 man is going to make you hit the enrage, you need to tank to your dps about stepping it up. That's less than 200 more dps from each of your dps.

[Phation]

Turns out you don't know your class's mechanics :-\

This wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't in the same damn thread. Please stop giving bad advice.

Tl;Dr Deep wounds and Imp Revenge are BOTH good talents. Shelly, however, is correct, as the formula displays. Deep Wounds scales with your gear and is a passive ability, which means that if you crit with improved revenge...you apply deep wounds. Win? Win.

I'm aware of the formula, that was the math of the Deep Wounds before application of attack power. But thanks for showing you understood that, was a great bit of help. I used the base damage for Deep Wounds application because everyone's attack power will vary but that damage I gave is guaranteed (in the ideal situation where you're proc'd deep wounds every 2 seconds). Revenge can't really be applied without attack power because that's what is used to calculate the damage for it and also it's a different application base for the talents, 20% of the total damage is increased.

Both are good talents, but given one the situation of one over the other, I'd lean towards having Improved Revenge over Deep Wounds.

[Shelly]

I'm aware of the formula, that was the math of the Deep Wounds before application of attack power. But thanks for showing you understood that, was a great bit of help. I used the base damage for Deep Wounds application because everyone's attack power will vary but that damage I gave is guaranteed (in the ideal situation where you're proc'd deep wounds every 2 seconds). Revenge can't really be applied without attack power because that's what is used to calculate the damage for it and also it's a different application base for the talents, 20% of the total damage is increased.

Both are good talents, but given one the situation of one over the other, I'd lean towards having Improved Revenge over Deep Wounds.

You also advise someone not to take incite. Which is pretty much insane, but I would prefer us to actually talk this out than scream at each other.

Improved Revenge just isn't that great a talent in my opinion and Incite is pretty much mandatory. With Incite Deep Wounds also becomes mandatory - although there are some folks who swear by improved cleave.

Here are my reasons why:

1. Heroic Strike/Cleave should ALWAYS be your #1 damaging ability. Whether in heroics or in a raid. You should have very little in the way of normal attacks.

2. Incite gives you roughly equal crit levels to that of your DPS. Without those high levels of crit the chances of you losing aggro scale up rapidly.

3. Deep Wounds allows you to provide a stacking debuff on the enemies that draws aggro. You have a 20% to 35% or greater chance of applying this debuff on single target and multiple targets using your most common threat moves.

4. Revenge can and often does take a backseat to other tools. Sunder, TC or DS falling off? Well then no Revenge that GCD. S&B proc? No revenge there either. Whereas you'll be hitting HS or Cleave every single swing - as rage allows. If you aren't doing so you are at best a learning tank and are at worse a bad tank.

5. Revenge has no extra weight for an "avoidance" tank over a stam-stacking tank. Every tank running T9 badge gear - which is so easy to get that it's our average - has at least 20% dodge, 20% parry and 15% shield block rating. That means on every attack received you have a 65% chance of avoiding or mitigating the damage being done.

6. There are just better places to put those points. Improved Spell Reflection is great for heroics or certain fights - Malygos for one. Improved Disciplines with the Glyph is our presumed baseline for Shield Wall on bosses to negate their special attacks.

7. Even with the often infinite rage scenarios warriors find themselves in we're still better served by Focused Rage. If you find yourself able to do without it and want more threat you gain more out of Cruelty and an extra 3% crit that affects all your abilities over 20% more damage to just one.

Phation, I've shown you how DW does more threat and more damage over improved revenge in a raid. All tanks know to take incite to maximize their HS/Cleave damage and while I agree that there's plenty of room for variance in spec you have yet to show me anything convincing as to why improved revenge would be a wise investment.

Now kindly put up or shut up.

[Phation]

You didn't argue much there Shelly there for Deep Wounds, and again, I never said Deep Wounds was a bad choice of things to get. I applied everything to the scenario given here and in this case certain things are going to be more useful in maintaining agro as opposed to others. There's always wiggle room in specs.

Improved Revenge isn't that great of a talent, neither is Deep Wounds, that's why they're not key to any particular builds. They're subjective points to player style and preference. Improved Revenge will be more useful in some cases while Deep Wounds will be more useful in others, it's up to the player. Given his gear, I'd drop the Deep Wounds until I was more evenly balanced out then put the points back, there's better uses of points at the juncture. That's all I was saying. Neither is better or worse than the other, they each have their advantages.

Revenge will give you a greater boost in threat on single target tanking, Deep Wounds won't give you nearly as much threat overall.

Deep Wounds will give you more damage on AoE packs, Revenge is geared towards single target.

Revenge will give you more damage on a longer fight, Deep Wounds doesn't use up your GCD.

There's points and counter points to everything. It's subjective. There's no point in saying something's wrong when it's not, the math supports each as viable options.

Incite vs. Cruelty is the same thing if having to pick between the two, do you take 20% for 2-3 abilities or do you take 5% for all of them? Player preference at the end of the day. Both will be effective no matter what you pick.

Crit gets the back seat to threat for me. It most certainly helps a hell of a lot for that threat but if you're not putting out enough threat to begin with then a small amount of crit isn't going to change that. My goal as a tank is to make sure my DPS can do their job to their best without having to worry about agro coming off me and to make life easier on the healers if possible. While my 100 added DPS is a good thing, would I sacrifice 1000 or more TPS for it? Doubtful. If you can have your cake and eat it to, beautiful, I can pull that off, some people aren't able to do one without losing the other. That would be the case if you got Improved Spell Reflect over Improved Revenge for any tank, you sacrifice a sure thing for a situational ability that has no practical use in raids.

Lastly, an avoidance tank and stam tank are very different, while your average tank in T9 badge gear has 65% avoidance and is quite happy to get pounded on, an avoidance tank with that same gear will have 80% avoidance or more depending on trinkets and shields and weapons and blah blah blah. The fact is that they're different, not hugely, but enough to make a subtle change in the statistical numbers. That's all. Now kindly prove any of this wrong.