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  1. #81

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    Nicely written guide!

    There is only one issue in my opinion - that of opening with Mutilate.

    In my opinion skilled rogues should always open with Garrore. You can easily do Garrote - SnD -HfB and then do a 4 or even 5 point envenom without dropping initial 8 second SnD. This provides few advantages - first you don't waste 2 combo points from opening with Muti that essentialy are useless to open SnD. Second, when opening with Muti, your target usualy is yet to be poisoned and as such you'll lose 20% of Muti damage, while when opening from garrote you'll stack some Deadly Poisons on your target really fast.

  2. #82

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    Theres one thing your not throwing into account. In order for garrote to effectively out do a mutilate (even without the monstrous 20% dmg buff) you would need to have both garrote talents (the 3 point from sub tree, and blood spatter from Assn tree) and you would assume your already buffed from raid wide buffs like 10% AP from shamans and such (proc buffs)
    Mutilate out does garrote in not only damage possibility, but also in breathing room. 2-3 combo point opening of Slice and Dice is MUCH more effective than a 1 point slice and dice, as you still have to put up HfB and get 4-5 combo points AGAIN before you can use envenom to refresh it. This opens up the possibility of it dropping... while its very likely to keep itup, there is still the possibility (expecially when not exp capped). You also have to put into account that Mutilate can proc BOTH of your poisons at once (possibly) resulting in faster deadly poison 5 stack, and an instant poison. Not only that, they cost pretty much the same amount of energy (garrote 50, Mute 55). Mutilate just has more possibilities for more dmg and utility for rotation. Specially with high end gear (more crit)
    Correct me if I'm wrong anyone...

  3. #83
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    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3 And Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbyd
    I disagree . Currently I'm sitting at 573 haste, 403 hit, and 49.99% crit unbuffed. In a 25 man raid I found myself often getting lucky strings of ruthlessness procs combined with mutilate crits (and the 25 energy from relentless strikes) and finding myself clipping my envenom buffs because I simply had TOO much energy than I knew what to do with. It was either clip my envenom to avoid capping my energy or let my energy overcap and waste it. Here I am sitting with these two seemingly undisirable talent/glyphs, im speaking of Quick recovery and Glyph of FoK. Why would I need glyph of FoK? I focus on single dps on boss fights primarily, so it's pretty much useless right there. I replace with glyph of vigor. 2 points into quick recovery seem half wasted, as Im expertise cap and my finishing moves WILL always land. I can get by on just 1 point in this for the 10% healing recieved. I took one point from that, and into Vigor.
    Now in the beginning it may seem as though your only benefitting from the start by 20 energy, which by the way offers excellent breathing room for the start of your rotation, also allowing you to go slightly longer before you find yourself energy starved. Also for those cases where you have to choose bettween clipping your Env buff or capping your energy, you now have an extra second of breathing room, that may just allow you to negate either choice. It's worked wonders for my rotation. You should really try it out.
    If you're expertise capped, fleet footed is a better place to put the points from quick recovery; Run speed is invaluable. Every second off of a boss = 10,000 or more damage lost. Fleet footed takes that and chops it down to 8,500 damage loss, a "gain" of 1500 for every second. Glyph of FoK isn't used in raids anyway... You should have HfB, Mut, and TotT. 10 energy more on your cap (20 if you glyph, but I won't go into that) yields a little less than a second more pooling time. That's less than a second more uptime on whatever envenom you are trying not to clip. Losing 8% movement speed = 800ish (closer to 1200 if you're in heroic gear) damage lost every second off of boss on movement heavy fights. Given, on a tank and spank, the fleet footed will give you exactly 0 dps, and 1 point in vigor will give you a minor boost (think less than 10dps) in damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by benkarioz
    Nicely written guide!

    There is only one issue in my opinion - that of opening with Mutilate.

    In my opinion skilled rogues should always open with Garrore. You can easily do Garrote - SnD -HfB and then do a 4 or even 5 point envenom without dropping initial 8 second SnD. This provides few advantages - first you don't waste 2 combo points from opening with Muti that essentialy are useless to open SnD. Second, when opening with Muti, your target usualy is yet to be poisoned and as such you'll lose 20% of Muti damage, while when opening from garrote you'll stack some Deadly Poisons on your target really fast.
    The poison thing isn't necessarily right, Hunters run marks as the top dps spec in raids, and marks opens with serpent sting for maximum uptime on the boss. Keep in mind that opening with garrote also requires you to stealth to a boss, and any boss that's not saurfang or blood princes requires time running to get to it. You lose precious seconds of autoattack attempting to stealth up behind a target to garrote instead of running full speed in and mutilating to gain initial points. As abbyd said, garrote's damage per energy is low. Even below that of an 80% damage mutilate, so opening with garrote really won't net you anything except a guaranteed bleed to start HfB, something easily provided by other classes.
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  4. #84

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    ok, I have a quick question.

    I recently respected my rogue to 51/18/2 from the 51/13/7 I had before, from previous patch. Now, I'm really asking myself since this means not taking Opportunity is it really a dps gain to go 4+ combo points on envemon all the time?

    Depending on raid setup and luck, sometimes Ruthlessness doesn't proc and mutilate crits, or it procs but mutilate doesn't crit. Either way, you end up with 3 points, and doing 1 more mutilate can waste 1 combo points if it crits.

    Now, I use to have Relentless Strikes at 5 points, so it made sense, (3CP-->60%, 5CP--->100%) but right now, the percentage is a lot lower, 32% chance at 4CP VS 24% at 3CP, and it really helps to keep envemon uptime and have another chance to get CP from the finisher. Envemon is around 16% of the total dps, so I wanted to know if the envemon uptime by doing 3 CP only and then fall back in the 4+ again would outdps the downtime on it, and the possible waste of 1CP if you get a crit?
    would the 4setT10 change this?
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  5. #85

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    I have a question about aoe pulls. I know we're rogues and we don't care about aoe pulls blah blah blah, but I still like to max out my dps in any situation. As a mutilate rogue our FoK damage is considerably weaker than a combat rogue's. I was wondering if there was a way to get a leg up by weapon swapping? Maybe swap out my fast dagger for a 1.8 speed one while aoeing? I also heard that using slow weapons with IP was the best way to AoE, but what about on pulls that last a bit longer? Would DP be better in those cases as getting a large stack of DP on each target seems like it would do more damage long-term.

  6. #86

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3 And Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying
    The poison thing isn't necessarily right, Hunters run marks as the top dps spec in raids, and marks opens with serpent sting for maximum uptime on the boss. Keep in mind that opening with garrote also requires you to stealth to a boss, and any boss that's not saurfang or blood princes requires time running to get to it. You lose precious seconds of autoattack attempting to stealth up behind a target to garrote instead of running full speed in and mutilating to gain initial points. As abbyd said, garrote's damage per energy is low. Even below that of an 80% damage mutilate, so opening with garrote really won't net you anything except a guaranteed bleed to start HfB, something easily provided by other classes.
    Why would you want to lose Overkill by running to the boss and Mutilating? Excuse me, but that's just as innefective as wasting 2-3 combo points of initial Mutilate on Slice and dice. There isn't a single boss in ICC that you as a Mutilate rogue can't open up on from Stealth. You can sneak in advance, ahead of the raid group you know. Heck, even on bosses with AoE (BQ, Sindy, you still can sneak up, even though you won't open most probably, you'll get Overkill buff) In my raid groups Muti rogues are usualy the first people after tank that start pounding on boss, bacause every Muti rogue is in like 10 feet from the boss when the tanks do the pulling so even thoght Garrote might be low on energy -> cost side of things, it's there to give you guaranteed fast bleed for HfB (while other melee classes capable of puting a bleed are still running to the melee range!) and it gives you initial one point to get you rolling on SnD (then either Ruthlessnes proc and you do a 4 point Envenom, or you do double Mutilate which usualy (unless you are really unlucky) means a 5 pointer).


  7. #87

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbyd
    Theres one thing your not throwing into account. In order for garrote to effectively out do a mutilate (even without the monstrous 20% dmg buff) you would need to have both garrote talents (the 3 point from sub tree, and blood spatter from Assn tree) and you would assume your already buffed from raid wide buffs like 10% AP from shamans and such (proc buffs)
    Mutilate out does garrote in not only damage possibility, but also in breathing room. 2-3 combo point opening of Slice and Dice is MUCH more effective than a 1 point slice and dice, as you still have to put up HfB and get 4-5 combo points AGAIN before you can use envenom to refresh it. This opens up the possibility of it dropping... while its very likely to keep itup, there is still the possibility (expecially when not exp capped). You also have to put into account that Mutilate can proc BOTH of your poisons at once (possibly) resulting in faster deadly poison 5 stack, and an instant poison. Not only that, they cost pretty much the same amount of energy (garrote 50, Mute 55). Mutilate just has more possibilities for more dmg and utility for rotation. Specially with high end gear (more crit)
    Correct me if I'm wrong anyone...
    A valid point if you need that said breathing space. With ICC 25 level of gear I have never had any problems with 1-point Garrote - SnD -4-5 CP Envenom opening rotation. Once you hit SnD your DP stack is basicaly done.

  8. #88
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    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3 And Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by benkarioz
    Why would you want to lose Overkill by running to the boss and Mutilating? Excuse me, but that's just as innefective as wasting 2-3 combo points of initial Mutilate on Slice and dice. There isn't a single boss in ICC that you as a Mutilate rogue can't open up on from Stealth. You can sneak in advance, ahead of the raid group you know. Heck, even on bosses with AoE (BQ, Sindy, you still can sneak up, even though you won't open most probably, you'll get Overkill buff) In my raid groups Muti rogues are usualy the first people after tank that start pounding on boss, bacause every Muti rogue is in like 10 feet from the boss when the tanks do the pulling so even thoght Garrote might be low on energy -> cost side of things, it's there to give you guaranteed fast bleed for HfB (while other melee classes capable of puting a bleed are still running to the melee range!) and it gives you initial one point to get you rolling on SnD (then either Ruthlessnes proc and you do a 4 point Envenom, or you do double Mutilate which usualy (unless you are really unlucky) means a 5 pointer).
    If you can stealth up you can stealth up, but opening with garrote is still a no. It's not worth ever using a less damage/energy move when a higher one is available. The classes that can bleed (hunter, druid, warrior, other rogues) spend an equal amount of time getting to any boss as you would stealthing all the way up to the boss. Hunters don't even spend time running to the boss, open with a poison->Chim->aimed->ss (chim, aimed and SS can bleed if crit), warriors should get in 2-3 attacks, and ferals *open* with a bleed. Between 5 attacks at ~65% or more crit (not even counting more than 1 warrior/hunter) you're almost at a 100% chance (99.5% that the 5ish abilities going off crit) that a bleed will be up by your 3rd gcd, which is HfB.
    You don't lose overkill, you still start in stealth, but you can break stealth either manually or with mutilate. You lose at most 1s of overkill for the added benefit of running 35% faster than you'd run in stealth. This means more auto attacks, a faster DP stack, and a superior opener. There's really no reason to use garrote outside of pvp's silencing benefit or if there's absolutely no other bleeding classes. Another thing to keep in mind is a 2-3pt snd has 2-3x the chance of granting a relentless strikes proc than a 1pt snd.
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  9. #89

    Re: Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons
    As a mutilate rogue our FoK damage is considerably weaker than a combat rogue's
    are you using grey daggers or why is that so?
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  10. #90
    So I took a break after a bit after Ulduar came out and alot has changed. I've read the guide and had couple of questions.

    First of all... here is my armory. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...rin&cn=Lothars

    Right now I'm currently running 10 ICC with a small guild of friends and not sure how far we'll get as we have only ran it once as a guild so far.

    So from what I have read, AP > Agi gems and should be prioritizing haste. Is this the case with my current gear?

    Also, I've read I should be focusing on haste after 237(?) hit.
    What exactly is the "crit cap" %?

    Assuming I'll be changing gears fairly soon to ICC 10 and 25(possibly) what gear should I be aiming for that's possible non-raid.

    Thanks for the advices to come

  11. #91
    Ok. i read most of this topic, also lurked around EJ forums, my question tho is, how can i inc the EP value of haste? im currently stuck at 880 haste and both spreadsheet and the java app shows that haste is like 1,98-1,99 EP, i want to drop my alch and go engi, but then again i want to get as much as i can from that hand enchant and the higher i go on haste value the better it will be, the spreadsheet and that java app thingy do suggest to go on some gems with 20ap/haste but i just dont know how to get it higher, so any ideas?

    heres my armory if it helps, http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ger&cn=mirdael

    my armory might show my combat spec and gear tho, but maybe the theory can solve it anyways
    Last edited by chocobo; 2010-06-14 at 07:03 PM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totality View Post
    So I took a break after a bit after Ulduar came out and alot has changed. I've read the guide and had couple of questions.

    First of all... here is my armory. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...rin&cn=Lothars

    Right now I'm currently running 10 ICC with a small guild of friends and not sure how far we'll get as we have only ran it once as a guild so far.

    So from what I have read, AP > Agi gems and should be prioritizing haste. Is this the case with my current gear?

    Also, I've read I should be focusing on haste after 237(?) hit.
    What exactly is the "crit cap" %?

    Assuming I'll be changing gears fairly soon to ICC 10 and 25(possibly) what gear should I be aiming for that's possible non-raid.

    Thanks for the advices to come
    Starting off, the crit cap is completely based on your current hit/expertise. You can use: http://wow.filltheglass.org/crit_cap.php to find your current crit cap.
    As for gemming/enchanting, you'll have to spreadsheet to be sure, but you'll most likely be putting AP gems into red sockets, and AP/haste into yellow, or AP/haste in red and haste in yellow, completely dependent on your current gear. Generally the haste setup pulls ahead at higher gear levels, so AP and AP/haste is probably what is best for you. Agi never really pulls ahead for mut.
    As for non-raid gear, you can buy some BoE's if you have the money. Wodin's Lucky Necklace, Ikfirus's Sack of Wonder, and the extremely expensive Runed Band of the Kirin Tor are straight out buyable. You could craft quite a few things to get you ahead as well, such as Bracers of Swift Death, Bladeborn Leggings, and Footpads of Impending Death.
    You definitely need some more expertise, but that can be gemmed.
    You won't be rupturing any more as mut, so drop the glyph of rupture for tricks of the trade.

    Good Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by chocobo View Post
    Ok. i read most of this topic, also lurked around EJ forums, my question tho is, how can i inc the EP value of haste? im currently stuck at 880 haste and both spreadsheet and the java app shows that haste is like 1,98-1,99 EP, i want to drop my alch and go engi, but then again i want to get as much as i can from that hand enchant and the higher i go on haste value the better it will be, the spreadsheet and that java app thingy do suggest to go on some gems with 20ap/haste but i just dont know how to get it higher, so any ideas?

    heres my armory if it helps, http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ger&cn=mirdael

    my armory might show my combat spec and gear tho, but maybe the theory can solve it anyways
    1.99 is pretty high, and the engineering will likely easily beat out alchemy. When you pop the gloves enchant on to Ald's sheet it should re-balance your EPs, and probably change a few gems around. Play around with it, and it will surely come out on top.
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  13. #93
    well its easy to say play with it, and i surly did, when the Alds sheet says to gem lets say 20ap/10haste i gem like 2 of those and then all the other "hints" suggest to gem 20haste everywhere, and still im usualy stuck at that 1.99 EP value the only way i can go higher, on that value is to get rid of Tiny Abo in a jar and replace it with Lady DW 10man HC trinket(forgot the name) then my EP value of haste goes to like 2.06 but that just seem bad that i need to get rid of that good trinket, and still be stuck with a badge one + one from raid ( alltho i dont have that 10man hc one ;p). Well thanks for the reply if you got some ideas, please dont hessitate to share

  14. #94
    Annoying, thanks for the tips.
    So I should just ignore set pieces for better upgrades for now? HfB on druid/warrior bleeds?
    As I get upgrades I'm sure I would be changing gems constantly but is geming expertise worth it?
    Last edited by Totality; 2010-06-17 at 08:11 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocobo View Post
    well its easy to say play with it, and i surly did, when the Alds sheet says to gem lets say 20ap/10haste i gem like 2 of those and then all the other "hints" suggest to gem 20haste everywhere, and still im usualy stuck at that 1.99 EP value the only way i can go higher, on that value is to get rid of Tiny Abo in a jar and replace it with Lady DW 10man HC trinket(forgot the name) then my EP value of haste goes to like 2.06 but that just seem bad that i need to get rid of that good trinket, and still be stuck with a badge one + one from raid ( alltho i dont have that 10man hc one ;p). Well thanks for the reply if you got some ideas, please dont hessitate to share
    You don't need any particular EP for haste from the sheet. You need the highest estimated DPS with the gear you have. If ald's sheet shows you at higher DPS without the tiny abom, then so be it. If your EP for haste is under 2.0 and your gems are optimal, then so be it. The spreadsheet's value of haste drops as you get more of it/gem more of it. So putting more haste gems in (as it recommends) should pull your EP down below 2. Ideally, you're gemming a balance of AP/haste with the goal of balancing your EP for haste right at 2.0. It seems you're right at that level, so there's nothing to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totality View Post
    Annoying, thanks for the tips.
    So I should just ignore set pieces for better upgrades for now? HfB on druid/warrior bleeds?
    As I get upgrades I'm sure I would be changing gems constantly but is geming expertise worth it?
    The 2P T10 is highly worth it, so much that you'll have a hard time getting a good ICC gearset without it. I just listed some non-frost badge gear. If you've got frost badges, then aim for the really good pieces first (2PT10, Trinket). As for expertise, it's almost always going to be worth more than any other stat in a gem socket if you're not capped. Whether or not to deal with it while upgrading quickly is all dependent on how rich you are. If you've got the money, it's worth it.
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  16. #96
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    Time to tidy up with the new forum. Argh you anchors and iurls.
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  17. #97
    What does 2EP means ? GREAT guide so far btw

  18. #98
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    EP = Equivalent points. If a stat has 2EP it means every point of that stat is worth 2AP. Essentially you could read them as "Effective attack power" if you preferred. 2EP is the "magic" breakpoint due to getting twice as much AP per gem as any other stat. Once haste (for example) reaches 2.0EP, it becomes worth it to gem haste instead of AP. If nothing's over 2EP, AP is the gemming choice.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    EP = Equivalent points. If a stat has 2EP it means every point of that stat is worth 2AP. Essentially you could read them as "Effective attack power" if you preferred. 2EP is the "magic" breakpoint due to getting twice as much AP per gem as any other stat. Once haste (for example) reaches 2.0EP, it becomes worth it to gem haste instead of AP. If nothing's over 2EP, AP is the gemming choice.
    Can you try to explain that a litle easier ? Didnt understand
    Last edited by Bilderamme; 2010-06-25 at 09:03 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilderamme View Post
    Cab you try to explain that a litle easier ? Didnt understand
    The EP of a particular stat (Agi, Haste, Crit) tells you how valuable (for dps) that stat is compared to raw Attack Power. EP is used to compare the different stats.

    example: (made up numbers)
    AP = 2 EP
    Crit = 1.5 EP
    Haste = 3 EP

    Therefore:
    Haste > AP > Crit

    Real world application:
    Gear 1 has:
    10 AP, 6 haste, 2 crit

    Gear 2 has
    5 AP, 12 haste, 5 crit

    Gear 1's total EP:
    10(2EP) + 6(3EP) + 2(1.5EP) = 41EP

    Gear 2's total EP:
    5(2EP) + 10(3EP) + 5(1.5EP) = 47.5EP

    Gear 2 > Gear 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

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