Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

[Annoying]

You only use that extra energy once. After that, there's no point where you go above about 80 energy (and certainly never above 100), so you're dumping a whole talent point into 10 energy on the opener.

[Lunabaduna]

You only use that extra energy once. After that, there's no point where you go above about 80 energy (and certainly never above 100), so you're dumping a whole talent point into 10 energy on the opener.

right. thanks for the quick answer

[DarkLynx]

Annoying, there is no point in clipping envenom with ~.5 seconds left on it. Just hit envenom as soon as the buff falls off, the envenom you're using is affected by its own envenom buff, so clipping by even .5 seconds is actually a dps loss.

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding the posts where Aldriana said it, but it has always been modeled that way in his sheets, due to running tests showing envenom proccing poisons more often than other finishers.

[Javanface]

Darklynx is correct. Through some serious testing it was shown that the envenom buff is activated before the envenom itself lands for some odd reason, so the envenom benefits from its own buff.

Edit: Nice job updating everything for patch 3.3 btw, I made an attempt at the same thing but uni got the best of me around the same time so I wasn't really able to follow up on it as I would have liked. And congrats on becoming a moderator as well!

[Raptorg]

right. thanks for the quick answer

Keep in mind that's for raiding, it's still a very good talent for leveling. So don't go and respec out of it until you're level 80.

[foof]

Didn't read all replies and just skimmed the guide; however, is gemming Agility > AP when low on crit? I current have maybe 75% 20 agil gems and the rest 40 AP [+ 10 stats for my blue socket] and still remain ~40% crit [no crit trinkets].

[Javanface]

Didn't read all replies and just skimmed the guide; however, is gemming Agility > AP when low on crit? I current have maybe 75% 20 agil gems and the rest 40 AP [+ 10 stats for my blue socket] and still remain ~40% crit [no crit trinkets].

The reason we don't gem agility isn't necessarily due to the crit capping issues but rather that the part of our damage that is poison and doesn't benefit from the crit from agility has grown rather dramatically in 3.3. Therefore AP is generally better as it benefits all of our attacks rather than just a part of them. As always, check a spreadsheet to be sure.

to clarify:

Poisons work off of spell hit and spell crit

Agility increases AP and melee crit.

Edit: btw annoying, you should probably clarify that the TotT glyph benefits raid dps, not personal dps as not everyone is necessarily interested in raids on a level where this is important. Say someone only runs 5mans atm for example, sure TotT is good but the 4 extra seconds to tank threat isn't that important and most of the time you wouldn't have time to use a second tricks anyway.

I've also found the 30% speed increase after vanish (minor glyph) to be very very good on several occasions, perhaps so good that it's worth mentioning as well.

[Spongy]

I have been reading that you should be using envom on 3/4 not going for the 5 if ure on 3. Just wondering if this is true

[Pikapika]

I have been reading that you should be using envom on 3/4 not going for the 5 if ure on 3. Just wondering if this is true

No, you should be doing a 4+ envenom cycle. That means mutilating again if you have 3CP.

[Annoying]

I have been reading that you should be using envom on 3/4 not going for the 5 if ure on 3. Just wondering if this is true

The spreadsheet has a setting for the 3+ Envenom setting, I've yet to find a gearset that it's an increase in yet, but the option's there to check if it's a DPS benefit vs the standard 4+.

[Spongy]

Well my rogue is just a alt i generall do 8k dps and knoticed a minor increase when i tryed a 3 point min, ill sim it see what that says. I read that the envom proc outwayed the extra damage from having to muti once more and doing slightly more damage with envenom. My mains a shaman just looking for some tips really :P


Just used s sim and turned out 4 point was a 100 dps upgrade. Doesnt seem that huge a different at higher levels of AP or Haste does it still work out better?

[Spongy]

Just simmed it and turned out to be a 8.6k dps with 4+ instead of 8.5k with 3+. Is ther a spreadsheet like this for enhancement shamans i prefer spreadsheets xD Should really be posting that in shaman forums. But at higher levels of haste and AP does it still not outway it? would like some numbers from other peoples sim

[Annoying]

I read that the envom proc outwayed the extra damage from having to muti once more and doing slightly more damage with envenom.

One of the things you may have not taken into account is that your envenom self-buff is longer with higher point envenoms. A longer buff, a bigger sized envenom, and another chance to proc poisons when mutilating up to 4/5 points seems pretty logical to be able to overtake envenoming whenever you get 3+. Like I said, there's definitely an option for 3+ on both spreadsheets and I haven't found a gearset where it's optimal, but it's inclusion in both spreadsheets leads me to believe that there's probably some use for it. I know I tend to 3+ on trash just due to how fast it dies =D

[Spongy]

^^

Ah cool well it simmed out better and i was doing 4/5 before so ill revert back have got some upgrades since i changed probs why dps gone up :P also the heart dagger from deathwhisper how good actually is it, seen various posts about it and would having it x2 getting double proc outway the fact its 1.8 for your OH

[Annoying]

The proc is ok, but was recently nerfed. The normal mode dagger shows up just below heroic twin spike in terms of DPS, and outweighing the 1.8 offhand would require something crazy. Kalecgos' dagger from sunwell (lvl 70) shows an upgrade from an ilvl 264 1.8 speed dagger, so double 1.8 is definitely not worth it. If you don't have 258/264 daggers already, it is definitely viable for one of your hands =D

[Spongy]

Got it for MH atm and toc25 norml 1.4 or 1.3 whatever speed it is OH 1. So its basically like every proc weapon was godly then became beh its just like other weps now nice

[Flitzpatrick]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a definitive answer on energy pooling. While the BiS list states that no energy pooling would provide the highest DPS, the idea of doing it makes sense. Any thoughts?

[DarkLynx]

The thing about energy pooling before was if you pooled to about 60 and got a RS proc you could do 2 mutilates under the envenom buff. At this point, our envenom uptime is so high that there really is no need to "pool," simply wait until envenom drops off, then use another envenom, if you're up to 60 or so energy, cool, if not, no big deal, you're not guaranteed the RS proc that will make it work anyways.

[Annoying]

I still pool energy. I used to pool 60-80 to ensure that I'd get the 1/2 mutilates in during envenom, however, lately I've nearly always been able to get them in short of a few times per fight.

Pooling is still useful for cooldowns, however. If your gloves are almost up, and you pool to 80 energy, there's a much higher chance that you'll have 95% uptime on envenom during the haste buff versus maybe 75% without pooling. For general dps without a cooldown up, I doubt many would notice the difference between pooling and just spamming at this point.

[epicbeardman]

really nice guide I was wondering if you have 2/5 t9 should you use rupture in your rotation? thanks