Combat Rogue Rotation

[Twix]

Hey guys,
I am currently trying to figure the best rotation for a combat rogue (20/51/0). Some people told me that the rotatiton should be 2 combo points in snd and then eviscerate, others told me 3 combo points in snd and some people also recommended 5 combo points. I would like to know which one is the best??

ty

[probert]

Instant poison mainhand, deadly poison offhand.

Enter combat unstealthed. Tricks on tank.

Sinister strike to 2 dots. You're out of energy. Pop haste trinket + Pop killing spree.

After KS, sinister strike 2 more dots. Start slice'n'dice running.

After this, you want to 5 point eviscerate, never letting slice'n'dice fall. I stack blade furry and adrenaline rush whenever possible, although they're on different countdowns.

Presuming its not a fight where there's lots of aggro wipes, vanish whenever you can for the overkill effect. I also macro either another rogue's name, or the tank's name, into tricks of the trade.... its not all about your dps, but also about boosting raid performance and/or helping the tank maintain an aggro lead.

good luck.

[Voij]

Get SnD up with 2-3 CP, then keep it running with 4-5 CP, try to renew it between 0.5-4sec left on the timer, with 0.5sec left being better then 4sec.
Also, don't cap energy.

In between you can push out some 5 CP Eviscerates. [Remember to not let SnD drop.]

Instant poison mainhand, deadly poison offhand.

Enter combat unstealthed. Tricks on tank.

Sinister strike to 2 dots. You're out of energy. Pop haste trinket + Pop killing spree.

After KS, sinister strike 2 more dots. Start slice'n'dice running.

After this, you want to 5 point eviscerate, never letting slice'n'dice fall. I stack blade furry and adrenaline rush whenever possible, although they're on different countdowns.

Presuming its not a fight where there's lots of aggro wipes, vanish whenever you can for the overkill effect. I also macro either another rogue's name, or the tank's name, into tricks of the trade.... its not all about your dps, but also about boosting raid performance and/or helping the tank maintain an aggro lead.

good luck.

Wrong, far too late at starting SnD.
Also, Vanish is a dpsloss as Combat, so don't use it unless it's useful. [Vanishing Tear Gas on Putricide e.g.]

It's also called a Combo Point, not a dot.

Stack BF and other Haste effects with Bloodlust/Heroism, they're added multiplicatively[is that how you spell it in english?] and thus benefit most from being used simultaneously. Try to not use Adrenalinerush together with BF unless you can hit two targets. [Danger of energycapping is present, although not as bad as with 15/51/5]

[probert]

Wrong, far too late at starting SnD.
Also, Vanish is a dpsloss as Combat, so don't use it unless it's useful. [Vanishing Tear Gas on Putricide e.g.]

It's also called a Combo Point, not a dot.

I was under the impression that SnD effects are useless on killing spree, and a longer SnD duration at the very start allows you to get more 5 point eviscerates at the beginning. Yes the 6:1 ratio is Snd effect is important, but the whole point of using KS right away is to max energy regen at the start when you're building your rotation.

re: dot, yeah yeah i know DOT is damage over time.

[Pivalica]

you also do white and poison dmg during KS (at least thats what my combat log is showing), so SnD should be up from start.
If not usin 2pc t10, tot on tank, SS, SnD, and then whatever you do... If you ARE usind 2pc t10, SS, SnD, then ToT, then continue...

[Twix]

thx guys for the advices I will be looking forward to try this

[Ciderian]

Presuming its not a fight where there's lots of aggro wipes, vanish whenever you can for the overkill effect

you apparently have just switched over from Mutilate, as have I. There is no overkill energy regen as combat, instead you get it from 30% all the time from the Vitality talent.

[Sesshou]

Enter combat unstealthed. Tricks on tank.

Sinister strike to 2 dots. You're out of energy. Pop haste trinket + Pop killing spree.

After KS, sinister strike 2 more dots. Start slice'n'dice running.

You tricks on tank BEFORE combat (unless you have 2pc t10, they if the tank doesnt need immediate agro you could tricks a couple seconds in for the free energy) this way you start the fight with 100 energy. You SSx2 (or if you get a free point from the glyph 1 time is plenty), you will then NOT be out of energy and can SnD immediately. Then you BF and KS, you should be basically out of energy when you KS and you will be near full when its over. You do white hit during KS so haste effects are good.

BF+AR do not stack in any useful way unless you are hitting 2 targets.

If your raid blows hero/lust early (extremely early), you can delay BF to use with it since as said above it stacks multiplicatively. Otherwise pop it asap. You can delay it later if you know exactly when the hero/lust is coming, but if you delay too much and it ends up costing you an extra bf over the fight (relevant more for longer fights like Put), then having it sync with other buffs is unlikely to make up for an entire extra BF.

[Grindfreak]

I was under the impression that SnD effects are useless on killing spree, and a longer SnD duration at the very start allows you to get more 5 point eviscerates at the beginning. Yes the 6:1 ratio is Snd effect is important, but the whole point of using KS right away is to max energy regen at the start when you're building your rotation.

re: dot, yeah yeah i know DOT is damage over time.

You're still doing autoattacks during Killing spree, and that % to damage during makes it more than worth it.

[Izzeren]

I have a question that I have been wondering myself. I knew the rotation before I got Herkuml War Token
but since I have gotten that I have been letting it stack to 20 for the extra AP before I use KS + BF. Should I be doing this? By the time I get the 20 stack I usually have 5 combo points so immediately afterwards I pop SnD and then AR and build my rotation from there on out. I figured getting the 20 stack would net me more dps during my KS but it may not make that much of a difference.

[probert]

You're still doing autoattacks during Killing spree, and that % to damage during makes it more than worth it.

Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm adjusting my rotation accordingly.

I did ToC25 farm last night, noticed that 2 points + Snd before killing spree wasn't really an issue.

[Rallyho]

Instant poison mainhand, deadly poison offhand.

Enter combat unstealthed. Tricks on tank.

Sinister strike to 2 dots. You're out of energy. Pop haste trinket + Pop killing spree.

After KS, sinister strike 2 more dots. Start slice'n'dice running.

After this, you want to 5 point eviscerate, never letting slice'n'dice fall. I stack blade furry and adrenaline rush whenever possible, although they're on different countdowns.

Presuming its not a fight where there's lots of aggro wipes, vanish whenever you can for the overkill effect. I also macro either another rogue's name, or the tank's name, into tricks of the trade.... its not all about your dps, but also about boosting raid performance and/or helping the tank maintain an aggro lead.

good luck.

In what universe is Overkill and Killing Spree in the same talent build?
Maybe in the universe of "dots"


Taken straight of EJ due to lazyness:

PvE Combat, fast and flawed advice
Mainhand a sword/axe, fist or mace weapon of generally slow speed.
Offhand a sword/axe, dagger or fist weapon of generally fast speed.
Mainhand Instant Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison.

Priority:
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.
* Use cooldowns whenever possible. Killing spree + blade flurry, blade flurry +
adrenaline rush can be used. Adrenaline rush + killing spree is not recommended
due to energy capping.

1. Keep SnD up, no matter what the number of combo points are.
2. 5 point Eviscerate.
3. ToT when off cooldown, especially with 2pc T10.

[probert]

In what universe is Overkill and Killing Spree in the same talent build?
Maybe in the universe of "dots"

the lazy poster who forgets one ability is tied to the assassination tree vs combat. :P

FWIW you're probably vanishing anyways when its off of cooldown to manage aggro. at least that's the case for me if i'm paired with another rogue trading TofT with you.

[Izzeren]

One thing I wanted to add in is that if your in a 10-man raiding guild such as I am and have no warrior you have the option to weave in Expose Armor as well. I actually do this and it does not hurt my DPS at all matter of fact it actually helped increase my DPS slightly. I know some people may disagree with this, but alot of it boils down to your group makeup and with 10-Man raids they can vary alot.

[Eyetotem]

Also try to stack Blade Fury with Killing Spree as the extra haste also makes you hit more during KS and KS increases your damage during it.

[Vexxi]

Also try to stack Blade Fury with Killing Spree as the extra haste also makes you hit more during KS and KS increases your damage during it.

Even on single target? I've never heard of being able to hit more time w/ KS when BF is up...

I always use KS right off the bat after SnD starts up(3-5CP, depends on glyph proc) then pop AR/BF(or save BF for Hero/Speed Pot depends on fight duration).
Then just pop whatever comes back up, most important thing is keep SnD up and not refreshing too soon.
Oh and EviS at 5CP, never anything less.

[Sesshou]

Even on single target? I've never heard of being able to hit more time w/ KS when BF is up...

Ok, I can see why there might be some confusion. Haste effects (SnD, BF, trinkets, Hero/Lust) do not allow "KS" to hit more times. They allow for more white attacks and poison procs during the duration of KS. These extra hits take advantage of the 20% KS damage buff just like the KS hits do.

Also like some one said, you might want to expose armor if there are no warriors. In 25, it will probably always be a raid dps increase to have the buff up. This might not be the case in a 10 man. However, if you have a warrior in the raid they "should" be the ones putting it up.

[Vexxi]

Ah, I see.

IMO it's not worth popping BF during KS since it only lasts for 2.5sec, I believe it would benefit more being saved to pop w/ blood lust or with a Speed Pot.

(Of course it all depends on fight, if theres enough time to pop it twice it can be done)

I'm also curious as exactly what benefits you would get with popping BF w/ AR, if any at all.

[Sesshou]

AR+BF does nothing for single target. AR increases amount of specials, haste does not effect specials.

Also If used on cooldown, KS+BF won't sync up again until the 10 min mark (I think I math'd that correctly), so this only applies to the first time in a fight. Does your guild hero right off the bat? I'm sure it can vary between guilds, we usually don't hero right away (except rotface), so this is a non issue for me on most fights.

[Eyetotem]

Ah, I see.

IMO it's not worth popping BF during KS since it only lasts for 2.5sec, I believe it would benefit more being saved to pop w/ blood lust or with a Speed Pot.

(Of course it all depends on fight, if theres enough time to pop it twice it can be done)

I'm also curious as exactly what benefits you would get with popping BF w/ AR, if any at all.

What fight have you seen in ICC that doesn't allow you to pop BF and AR more than once?

Facts are most rogues are close to energy cap during BL with AR up due to Combat Potency. If you also added other haste effects with that of BL you would be wasting a ton of potential energy.

The smart thing to do is when BL is popped pop AR and go mad on the boss, AR will drop off before BL does. At that time pop haste pot, BF and KS together to get as much haste as possible for your Killing Spree. Notice in the tooltip for KS says "increasing ALL damage done by 20% for the duration." That means poison and white hits. The more haste you have the more you are hitting the boss and the more you are taking advantage of the 20% bonus.

If you want to succeed as a Rogue it is all about energy management. Using it ALL and not wasting one point of it. If you pop your haste pot with BL you will more than likely be energy capped because of GCD and waste it.