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  1. #41

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    First, I want to say that this posts topic has gone completely off track.

    That being said, I respect Qieth's opinion, he lays out a good arguement with some numbers to back it up. However I have to agree with Sunfyre's argument more so. Most fights nowadays require lots of movement which is bad enough. But since eclipse is the large majority of our damage and is RNG, it really can destroy our dps. Festergut is a great example of this, for me at least. Proccing eclipse and then getting hit with vile gas or having to move to a spore is simply terrible for dps.

    I push around 9k dps, give or take, on most fights consistently and pretty much never make top 5. Our top rogues, mages, dks, and even a badass ret pally and feral druid pull 10k minimum on most all our fights. They don't terribly out gear me either.

    Our scaling is a root of this problem I think with a very low soft haste cap and a pretty easy to reach soft crit cap in icc gear, our stats don't contribute as much as some other classes benefit from theirs. Bloodlust is a good example of this since most the time I see my dps go up somewhat while most other classes shoot by me.

    The fact is we are a hybrid class and will do less damage than other pure dps classes, that's ok with me. I love playing boomkin and still do good damage overall. My guild loves my contributions as far as buffs, utility, and even damage for fights. In the end though boomkins are good damage and somewhat competitive but overall I agree with Sunfyre we're just not a spec that will top meters (feral for a while was ridiculous and is still pretty damn good).

    If you are a top dps in your 25 mans as a boomkin good for you but I seriously believe you shouldn't be though. I have to believe the other pure dps players are either undergeared or not as skilled. No offense to you Quith, you seem very knowledgeable and do good damage, but I did not see any dps over 9k which isnt your fault. I'm mainly pointing my finger at your pure dps classes.

    *Sorry in advanced Quith for picking on your guildies but you're the only one who posted the numbers*

    I checked what you said and your world of logs and decided to SimCraft you and the other 3 dps that were on the boss the whole time. The log says that the fight was during this raiding week so i cant imagine your guys gear has changed that drastically. Since the style of fight is close to patchwerk in the sense its a stand and nuke with lil movement I put it's settings on that, to lazy to calculate it to be completely like DW.

    Here were the results of a patchwerk like fight under ideal conditions, essentially your average top dps possible:

    Jugger = 11,357 dps
    Csontzuzo = 11,000 dps
    Augentira = 9415 dps
    Qieth = 9,083 dps

    On your WoL you were pretty close to what your top potential can be during a fight, which is very good. The lock did pretty well overall maybe had more movement than normal so it hurt him. Your rogues though are far lower than what they are capable of doing, especially given the fact that they can dps and move much easier than you and the warlock. Being 2k+ under your top dps when all you really have to worry about is moving from death and decay is pretty poor.

    I applaud your solid dps Qieth but unfortunately it seems your other dps players, specifically your rogues are under performing. Which brings me back to if you are topping 25 mans as a boomkin I question the gearing and/or skill of the other players.

    Sorry for writing so much >.<
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  2. #42
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre
    Qieth,

    You know I respect your opinion and frequent your blog, however I'm still going to have to respectively disagree with you, and I know you don't like me ending it with "your mages must not be good if you're close to them", but, well, it's true.

    I'm in a top 50 world guild. The people I play with are very damn good at their class. They wouldn't be in the guild if they weren't. I'd like to think I'm pretty damn good at being a balance druid or I wouldn't be their raiding balance druid. You compare Deathwhisper as a good comparison. It's not. I'm one of the few who has the luxury to stand and nuke Deathwhisper the entire time. And even so, I can't stay on of the meters. Can I stay on top of mages? Sure, they're sheeping. And how many "stand and nuke" fights are there really? We can't say "We're good in a stand and nuke fight', when there really only has been one in Wrath (Patchwerk). We need to be good OVERALL. We can't call EVERY fight besides "stand and nuke" a gimmick. We need to be competitive in all realms. Not just a Patchwerk knock off.
    How much of sheeping do they spend their time on, on a boss like Deathwhisper? In reality, you need a sheep once in a while, from one mage, and then you're covered.

    Its true, in absolutely BIS gear, mages might come out stronger than us (and others). And yes, mages might in general be better served than us, but the actual final damage is hardly a massive gap. And even then, lets forget the mages: What about the warlocks, hunters, rogues and so on? Do they suck too? Because somewhere there must be at least one of my guildies that doesn't suck. Ill be the first to admit, my guild isn't perfect, but it's not terrible either, and there must be someone that doesn't suck, and could put up a fight. And assuming there is, if i am still competative and in the correct end of the meters, then we must be doing alright. Just like you are doing quite fine, topping both a rogue and a shadowpriest (at least): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/aj2mg...?s=1685&e=1970. That being said, maybe gear is a slight issue. Your mage Bewm, i notice, is quite well geared, with most of his items heroic.

    Ill repeat again what i said above: I am not claiming that i beat my mages on every fight. God no. I'm not saying that I have a massive DK-like lead on everybody. But being comfortably close to mages, and the rest of the caster classes, i'd say our damage is fine. When disregarding mages, and we're still on par or above the other caster classes, i'd say things are a-ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics
    Our scaling is a root of this problem I think with a very low soft haste cap and a pretty easy to reach soft crit cap in icc gear, our stats don't contribute as much as some other classes benefit from theirs. Bloodlust is a good example of this since most the time I see my dps go up somewhat while most other classes shoot by me.
    Stop. The benefit from our gear, from haste and crit, continues to be more or less the same, due to the interaction of set bonuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics
    The fact is we are a hybrid class and will do less damage than other pure dps classes, that's ok with me.
    Stop. Your hybrid tax argument falls apart as soon as we point at death knights, kitty druids or (these days) shadowpriests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics
    If you are a top dps in your 25 mans as a boomkin good for you but I seriously believe you shouldn't be though. I have to believe the other pure dps players are either undergeared or not as skilled. No offense to you Quith, you seem very knowledgeable and do good damage, but I did not see any dps over 9k which isnt your fault. I'm mainly pointing my finger at your pure dps classes.
    Stop. It is a huge mistake to take a log from one guild and compare it to those of another guild. There are too many factors, tactics, fight duration, when BL is used, etc, that you can't comfortably compare people across different guilds. Unless you go in and factor the gear difference between the two guilds, and everything else, comparing logs will give you some false results. The way you go about comparing people, is comparing them to the rest of their guild, assuming that they are equally geared (in my case we are, more or less, because we use a loot council rather than DKP).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics
    Here were the results of a patchwerk like fight under ideal conditions, essentially your average top dps possible:

    Jugger = 11,357 dps
    Csontzuzo = 11,000 dps
    Augentira = 9415 dps
    Qieth = 9,083 dps

    On your WoL you were pretty close to what your top potential can be during a fight, which is very good. The lock did pretty well overall maybe had more movement than normal so it hurt him. Your rogues though are far lower than what they are capable of doing, especially given the fact that they can dps and move much easier than you and the warlock. Being 2k+ under your top dps when all you really have to worry about is moving from death and decay is pretty poor.
    I have no arguments for this. I don't know why they are not reaching that, or if Simcraft is the best tool to use. But i know these guys, and Jugger - for example - is definately not a person dragging the raid behind. I could imagine that something as mundane as totems might not reach the rogues all the way up there, but i am going to have to draw a blank here in general.
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  3. #43
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Also, just one question on Simcraft. This doesn't seem right: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0A...cm54bjdy&hl=en
    (death knights)
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    No longer the King of Moonkins, but perhaps the Prince of Shamans?

  4. #44

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauron
    Thanks for this.

    I note with some concern that the hotfix is not in the patch notes. I hope they do not forget it.

  5. #45
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Hotfixes aren't generally in the patch notes, because they are being changed on the fly. Patch stuff is usually there because its either not critical enough to be fixed with a hotfix, or because it cannot be done without a patch. Hotfixes can be applied to the server immediately and might not even need a server restart. In this case, what happens when you proc the set bonus, is that the game asks the server what spell it should apply, and then does it. Right now, its being told that it should apply a level 1 spell, and simply changing the level on the spell would be enough to correct it.
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  6. #46
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Triston
    I want to see the armory of this person. No way do they have 4pc t10 already.

    I smell a troll.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...cn=Leafmuncher
    there you go.

    And on the moonkin being behind on dps:
    Yes, moonkins are little behind on dps. ATM they are on the bottom of the DPS lists(atleast if you check world of logs). If you only look at ranged dps Hunters and Arcane mages are at the top, which actually makes sense as they are "pure" classes. The main problem of moonkin is that if you have to move only thing you can do is refresh dots / throw a random typhoon if you are specced to it.

    If my valkyries dont instantly get killed and i have some luck with high eclipse uptime i do pretty well on meters.

    And i find it amusing that GC said "it can be hotfixed" and not "it will be hotfixed".

  7. #47
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    With or without all thats being said here, theres no reason moonkins should be at the bottom of the meters. I completely disagree on that part.
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  8. #48
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    How much of sheeping do they spend their time on, on a boss like Deathwhisper? In reality, you need a sheep once in a while, from one mage, and then you're covered.

    Its true, in absolutely BIS gear, mages might come out stronger than us (and others). And yes, mages might in general be better served than us, but the actual final damage is hardly a massive gap. And even then, lets forget the mages: What about the warlocks, hunters, rogues and so on? Do they suck too? Because somewhere there must be at least one of my guildies that doesn't suck. Ill be the first to admit, my guild isn't perfect, but it's not terrible either, and there must be someone that doesn't suck, and could put up a fight. And assuming there is, if i am still competative and in the correct end of the meters, then we must be doing alright. Just like you are doing quite fine, topping both a rogue and a shadowpriest (at least): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/aj2mg...?s=1685&e=1970. That being said, maybe gear is a slight issue. Your mage Bewm, i notice, is quite well geared, with most of his items heroic.
    I appreciate the compliment, however I ran with our alt group that week for 25man. I beat out our alts. The only mains in that run were myself, Neruse, Carnifex, and Casavirx (who was just replacing their gear due to losing it).

    This log is representative of a run with mains. As you notice, I'm much more in the middle of the pack, and my DPS actually went up by 700. Everyone above me (for the most part) stayed directly on Deathwhisper, with the exception of our hunter, Neruse, who did more DPS while switching targets.

    And our mages sheep on every spawn, and I believe they sheep the back as well. They're pretty busy during the fight.

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  9. #49
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Wait what? You sheep the adds? I thought you meant the players that gets MC'ed. Why on earth do you sheep the adds at this point? Simply split people up and nuke them down, it doesn't have to take very long.
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  10. #50
    High Overlord Davinfelth's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=1824&e=2135

    i dps like blog chickens! sorry, just nice to see I'm keeping pace, kind of hard to compare when you are always the only chicken. Its so lonely...
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  11. #51
    Stood in the Fire Eilt's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Just to echo what Sunfyre is saying, our last kill I had to go resto, but here are our pures number (Note: we keep melee on adds so this is a good ranged comparison):

    Hunter - 10.2k
    Warlock - 9.8k
    Mage - 10.4k
    Mage - 9.2k - This is actually reasonable for a moonkin to compete with.
    Rogue - 8.3k - and he was on adds mainly

    Now, I myself have been pushing close to 9k on the fight, but our other pures are pushing well over 9k. Now, if you can beat the pures from my guild I would love to know how, so I could improve.


  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I would probably prefer more than 3 minutes testnig, although this does seem worrying. If this is the case, however, im sure it'll get fixed.
    These "dickwads" gave you some amazing set bonuses throughout this expansions. It is the same "dickwads" that took 66% of the tier 8 bonus and simply baked it into our eclipse. These "dickwads" also just buffed our Earth and Moon (due to come next patch), and the "dickwads" also seem forthcoming in regards to further moonkin buffs, should they be nessecary.

    Im sure these dickwads will take a look at it and change whatever needs to be changed.
    Why doesn't dickwads seem negative after seeing this post? Hurray for the dickwads that were so nice to my moonkin!!!

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Eilt's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    Wait what? You sheep the adds? I thought you meant the players that gets MC'ed. Why on earth do you sheep the adds at this point? Simply split people up and nuke them down, it doesn't have to take very long.
    A lot of high end guilds (mine included) are using normal modes to practice. Sure it is great you get to say you killed a normal mode in the top world 50 kills, but we all know the hard modes are when real progression comes in. No one is really sure on just what will change when hard modes come out, but when they do it is better to have the raid prepared for different scenarios. So in heroic when you actually need to CC something, these guilds are a step ahead and practiced.

    Now, I can not say if that is why Sunfyre's guild is doing it, but it is a possibility, since I doubt their end goal is to faceroll through normal modes till Cataclysm.

  14. #54

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    I think our on-the-move DPS needs work, but I wouldn't say that Moonkin DPS is terrible. On those occasional turret-like fights you can push numbers like a few have already posted logs to:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/bzsvt...?s=1083&e=1354

    Having said that, a pure DPS class should beat us when in comparable gear and skill ability. Especially considering we bring a lot of utility to a raid.

    Getting back to topic though, has it been confirmed if they are fixing the Languish ability from being treated like a level 1 spell? I'm wondering if perhaps they have already fixed it quietly though reset today.

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  15. #55

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilt
    Just to echo what Sunfyre is saying, our last kill I had to go resto, but here are our pures number (Note: we keep melee on adds so this is a good ranged comparison):

    Hunter - 10.2k
    Warlock - 9.8k
    Mage - 10.4k
    Mage - 9.2k - This is actually reasonable for a moonkin to compete with.
    Rogue - 8.3k - and he was on adds mainly

    Now, I myself have been pushing close to 9k on the fight, but our other pures are pushing well over 9k. Now, if you can beat the pures from my guild I would love to know how, so I could improve.

    On our last deathwhisper 10 kill I stayed on the boss and got 9.8k dps (9.5k effective) and our last 25 man kill I had 8.8k dps. Stayed on the boss in 25 man as well, but I know for a fact that I slack a bit more on 25 and that my fps is quite a bit lower (might have to turn off shadows and AA, bummer ). You'll notice that I'm far down on the rankings for deathwhisper 25 for balance druids on WoL, not so much for 10 man. I'll try to stay focused for our 25 man deathwhisper kill tomorrow and report back ^^

    10 man: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=1774#Thorlak
    25 man: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2612&e=2874

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire Eilt's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    You can attribute the difference to "slacking" in the 25 man if you please. However, your 10 man kill lasted a whopping 2 minutes meaning heroism constituted over 33.33% of your kill time which will greatly inflate your numbers. Try sustaining that level of DPS as the numbers I previously posted in a ~4 minute fight and you may have something.

  17. #57

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilt
    You can attribute the difference to "slacking" in the 25 man if you please. However, your 10 man kill lasted a whopping 2 minutes meaning heroism constituted over 33.33% of your kill time which will greatly inflate your numbers. Try sustaining that level of DPS as the numbers I previously posted in a ~4 minute fight and you may have something.
    So you mean to say I had BL for 15% of the fight? Not much help for the 15 secs you have Solar Eclipse. Anyways as I said I'll keep up my focus tomorrow for the 25 man and turn off stuff so my fps gets higher. Reaching the numbers you posted are not unrealistic and I know there are boomkins out there with better gear than me as well.

  18. #58

    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    any word on if it is working yet have the badges want to know if i should buy it

  19. #59
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Iqe
    any word on if it is working yet have the badges want to know if i should buy it
    Either way it should be fixed shortly. Blues have addressed it.

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  20. #60
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Re: Moonkin T10 4 piece bonus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre
    Either way it should be fixed shortly. Blues have addressed it.
    GC said they CAN hotfix it
    Well, there was 8 hour maintenance last night

    Still no change.

    The fact they CAN do it doesn't mean they WILL do it in the next 2 months as moonkins are... 2%? of the playerbase.
    Of the 2% how many has the 4set bonus?

    Like... 0,01% of the population?

    Blizzard obviously thinks that it's not worth the trouble to change "1" to "80". (Oh god.. 1 mouse klick + 2 buttons) to get 0,01% of the population happy.

    If it would be mutilate rogues, Arms warriors or some other insanely overpopulated spec it would have been hotfixed instantly.

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