Blood Frenzy Overrated?

[Kysimir]

The numbers are averaged from WoL logs for the past months worth the Tuesdays in my guild. The purposes of this thread is to (1) Check my math. (2) See if anyone else noticed the same trend.

Physical DPS Percentages:

• Rogue 1= 46.5%
  Rogue 2= 47%
  Ret Pally= 43.2%
  Hunter 1= 37.3%
  Hunter 2= 62.8%
  DK 1= 47.5%
  DK2 = 48.2%
  Enh Sham= 49.3%
  Hunter 3 = 64.9%

By this, we can extrapolate that:

• Rogues = 46.8%
  Ret Pallies = 43%
  Surv Hunters = 37%
  Marks Hunters = 63%
  Unholy DKs = 48%
  Enh Shammies = 50%

If we assume that the average DPS of the above-mentioned classes is 8,000 with Blood Frenzy.

Assume that everyone does 8,000 DPS and that everyone is present (read: heavier phys DPS than normal comp).

• 8,000 x .47 = 3680 x .04 = 147.2 x2 = 294.4 DPS
  8,000 x .43 = 3440 x .04 = 137.6 DPS
  8,000 x .37 x .04 = 118.4
  8,000 x .63 x .04 = 201.6 x2 = 403.2 DPS
  8,000 x .48 x .04 = 153.6 DPS
  8,000 x .50 x .04 = 160 DPS

===

Average gain of: 1,267 DPS.

The following numbers were received from FESTERGUT (highest tank DPS fight).

• Pally Tank = Irrelevent
  Druid Tank = 100%
  Warrior Tank = 100%

Assuming only the two 100% Phys DPS are present. Assuming average DPS of 5,500 (avg'd from last month of Festergut), we can extrapolate the following:

• 5,500 x .04 = 220 DPS
  5,500 x .04 = 220 DPS

Tank Gain = 440 DPS

Obviously, if Pally Tank is present, the coeffecient for phys DPS would go down, resulting in blood frenzy rDPS loss.


Average gain of: 1,700 DPS.



Let's add +300 DPS, just in case I fucked up somewhere.


Maximum gain of: 2,000 DPS.

Edited to fix annoying coding errors for formatting.

[nitrizzle]

If you're in a guild where your average dps is 8k, I highly doubt blood frenzy is gonna get you world firsts.

[Inaiwae]

35-40% of raid damage is physical. It can vary even more depending on fight, tactics and raid composition.

If raid dps is 150k, then blood frenzy for 40% case is worth 2400 dps, and for 35% case its 2100.

Note that for Blood Queen, raid dps is around 180k.

[Kysimir]

If you're in a guild where your average dps is 8k, I highly doubt blood frenzy is gonna get you world firsts.

Understanding game mechanics / min-maxing raid composition is suddenly not important if you're not world first guild? Oh wait, it's the other thing.

35-40% of raid damage is physical. It can vary even more depending on fight, tactics and raid composition.

If raid dps is 150k, then blood frenzy for 40% case is worth 2400 dps, and for 35% case its 2100.

Note that for Blood Queen, the raid dps is around 180k.

Woot, an intelligent reply.

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. A lot of people, at least on my server, went Arms because rogues went Assassination. I know I did, assuming () that people like rogues were more like 80% physical. Then I went back and looked at logs and thought: "I might be able out DPS the benefit of Blood Frenzy with the discrepancy from fury :: arms." (Yes, I know that Arms :: Fury =/= 2.5k discrepancy, usually. But I'm a sunder bitch b/c our warrior tank isn't very active. Sunder for Arms is a mega DPS loss, and only marginal loss for fury) It's close enough I thought I'd poke MMO-Champ forums to make sure I didn't miss any big "dur" parts like DK's are actually 90% physical, etc etc.

[Astray]

What does "Overrated" mean to you?

I mean, whats the consequences?

Drop that talent? For what? A tiny chance of getting a point of rage per hit?

Plus, the haste part is valuable for the warriors rage management. (waiting for the "but haste iz bad for warriorz!!" post)

[GT4]

Just let one of your Rogues go Combat? The DPS loss of going Combat instead of Mutilate has become marginal since the nerfs (and even before it was less than the difference between a top geared Fury and a top geared Arms). According to some spreadsheets, in BiS gear Combat is even absolutely on par single target with Mutilate even though Combat has better burst and add DPS.

Otherwise the above poster was partly correct. 8k DPS is a very low assumption for most of those classes, especially considering you'll be starting to see people wearing 4t10 next week.

[Inaiwae]

I cannot comment on arms / fury, but i asked our rogues about it and they said that the difference shouldnt be more than 1000 dps on static fight, which is better for mutilate.

So definitely combat rogue is viable source of the debuff.

edit: On our BQL kill, Blood Frenzy / Savage Combat would do 2850 dps (189k rdps, 38% physical). Sadly we at the moment do not have the debuff in raid but i am working on it .

[Ilium]

just have one combat rogue. I raid as a combat rogue and I am #2 on dmg on fester. I havent checked numbers but as combat I out dps our arms warrior (he stopped playing bc of school) and our fury warrior out dps the arms. So if you are looking to increase your raid dps just have a rogue go combat warriors stay fury. Combat will out dps mutilate after you obtain full 264+ gear.

[Kysimir]

What does "Overrated" mean to you?

I mean, whats the consequences?

Drop that talent? For what? A tiny chance of getting a point of rage per hit?

Plus, the haste part is valuable for the warriors rage management. (waiting for the "but haste iz bad for warriorz!!" post)

Drop the talent for the entire Fury tree.

[Battousai]

I really dont think that the descreptency is that high atm. I've been doing arms/fury comparisons in ICC 25s lately (alternating if wipes...alternating on different weeks...etc). Festergut is an ok example assuming you're not a double spore. And on that fight I last week hit 8800 dps as arms, and my highest as fury was a little over 9k (9200 and change I believe). I think on both of those attempts I also had to move once with a spore. So, with the same weapons...using DW during a trinket proc and with a trinket and heroism...fury came out maybe 500 dps ahead on average for me.

You're right the buff probably accounts for around 2k raid dps, which is why I've been keeping both specs for raiding...arms if the buff is used on relatively stationary fights where you're not having to rend multiple targets...like professor, and fury for the mobile fights with add phases. It all comes down to what I've been saying before...ultimately its gonna depend on your playstyle and what you do best.

[Torne]

Drop the talent for the entire Fury tree.

if you gain 2k dps from speccing to fury,go for it.
i doubt it.
btw most raiding guilds also have feral druids,doing 100% physical dmg.for them,it´s a net 4% dmg increase.

[Kysimir]

I really dont think that the descreptency is that high atm. I've been doing arms/fury comparisons in ICC 25s lately (alternating if wipes...alternating on different weeks...etc). Festergut is an ok example assuming you're not a double spore. And on that fight I last week hit 8800 dps as arms, and my highest as fury was a little over 9k (9200 and change I believe). I think on both of those attempts I also had to move once with a spore. So, with the same weapons...using DW during a trinket proc and with a trinket and heroism...fury came out maybe 500 dps ahead on average for me.

You're right the buff probably accounts for around 2k raid dps, which is why I've been keeping both specs for raiding...arms if the buff is used on relatively stationary fights where you're not having to rend multiple targets...like professor, and fury for the mobile fights with add phases. It all comes down to what I've been saying before...ultimately its gonna depend on your playstyle and what you do best.

Personally, given that I'm sunder bitch, the discrepancy is quite a bit higher than yours. Although, you are correct - well played arms (without sunder management) and fury is usually not 2k, unless it has burn phases (XT/Yogg, etc), or herosim portion of BQL.

I mostly just brought this up because I'm sure I'm not the only one that assumed it was more than 2k rDPS.

if you gain 2k dps from speccing to fury,go for it.
i doubt it.
btw most raiding guilds also have feral druids,doing 100% physical dmg.for them,it´s a net 4% dmg increase.

I've never actually seen a boom kitty in a raiding guild first hand (only in a few logs here and there). Not that they're not there, just that I wouldn't classify their presence as being in "most" guilds. Moreover, good feral kitties average out at around 10k, right? 4% increase is only 400 DPS.

So, yes, if YOUR guild has a feral kitty, you'd add 400 DPS to your rDPS upping it from 1850-2000 to 2250 - 2400. My guild does not, so your point is kind of moot. >.>

[RPZip]

Ferals gain damage out of not having to apply Mangle, though, so if you're short a Bear it may be more beneficial than the straight-line physical DPS increase would indicate.

Your numbers for Unholy are also almost certainly wrong, as Savage Combat effectively buffs *both* aspects of Scourge Strike's damage. Increasing physical damage done increases the first hit, and the second hit's damage is a carbon copy of the firsts and then further modified by other effects (Blood Presence, Ferocious Inspiration, whatever).

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. A lot of people, at least on my server, went Arms because rogues went Assassination. I know I did, assuming (Sad) that people like rogues were more like 80% physical.

Make one of your Rogues go back to Combat.

[Kysimir]

"Make" the co-GM go combat. Sure thing. :lol:

So take Scourge Strike as 100% physical then? I was going off of tooltips. Think it said something like 50% then disease or something similar. >.>

[RPZip]

"Make" the co-GM go combat. Sure thing. :lol:

So take Scourge Strike as 100% physical then? I was going off of tooltips. Think it said something like 50% then disease or something similar. >.>

It hits for 50% weapon damage plus 400 or so then deals 75% of the damage of that physical hit as Shadow damage. In practice it ends up being about 50/50 because of things like Ebon Plaguebringer amping the backend, but anything that will increase the damage done by the physical portion will also increase the damage done by the shadow portion.

The really cool part is that things like Blood Presence double-dip. It increases the damage of the initial hit by 15%, which translates to a 15% larger Shadow Hit... but the Shadow Hit is increased by 15% again, which ends up combining to increase the Shadow damage by ~32%. This is getting a bit further into things you really don't need to worry about, though; just treat it as a 100% physical attack.

[Melonberry]

Some classes do more physical damage, but you'll almost never out dps that buff.

A rogue going combat or a warrior going arms actually doesn't make that much of a difference, but if I had to choose, I'd make the rogue change. (Making the rogue change also ups his physical damage output so he benefits more from his own buff)

[Kysimir]

Fuck rolling a DK

I hear ya loud and clear. I think that'll fit in the +300 DPS in case I fucked up area? >.>

Some classes do more physical damage, but you'll almost never out dps that buff.

A rogue going combat or a warrior going arms actually doesn't make that much of a difference, but if I had to choose, I'd make the rogue change. (Making the rogue change also ups his physical damage output so he benefits more from his own buff)

Isn't 'ssin higher than combat, regardless of phys/magic %'s?

Also "Some classes" ... WOL link?