Enhancement....my take

[Sarkastic]

Honestly what surprises me about enhancement shaman sims is that if haste is dependent upon what "gear" you have why isn't there a set haste or even a soft cap for gear sets. Most shamans that are consistent enough that have at least a 4 set of T9 by now it would depend on off items (ie belt, boots, bracers, trinkets.) Whenever i am bored i go on wow-heroes to look up all the top enhancement shamans on my server (im in the top 10), and top servers i know of to see if there is an over all consensuses on haste or Ap. Surprisingly enough Ap is the most commonly used gem with yellow slots being taken by 20ap-10haste. Over all the argument between which is better haste or Ap seems to come down to a preference for the player. Going over a lot of charts that i have seen from enhsim, people with matching gear stacking Ap or haste honestly do not vary that much. As everyone knows who posts on these forums Ap increases Sp which makes are rotation attacks hit harder, but slows us down some what. The mirror is haste which speeds our attacks up and allows for more MW procs and more white dmg. Thinking literally without simming, you can assume that they would actually even out in the end.

Basically what im getting at for everyone who cant read topic posts stating to stop asking what one is better for your enhancement shaman. Its a preference, if you feel the way for you to go is more MW procs and a shit ton of white dmg GO FOR HASTE! If you want massive dmg from your over all attacks(SS,ES,LL,WF) then stack AP. We are the most complicated class theory craft wise, which is why here on MMO and on elitist shaman forums are one of the most flooded topic discussions.

This is again just my take from what i see, im sure there will be plenty of trollers and i welcome all of it. <3

[Spongy]

Last time i checked its very similar but haste wins on a single target non moving fight and ap wins on everything else. Haste generally needs a better connection/computer cause if you lag and dont fire off asap your wasting to much time for new stacks to build which happens alot faster. Thats just my opinion correct me if thats wrong

[Sarkastic]

thats basically what i found to im just still surprised that there isnt a middle ground lol

[LyskaWF]

Thinking literally without simming, you can assume that they would actually even out in the end.

Your methodology is quite sound.

I don't really care what "your take" is on the issue. Haste sims out better. You can't argue that. Do you think the sim decides what stats are better based on rolling dice? It's a series of mathematical equations. I don't know about you, but I don't care what gemming gives me "acceptable" or "decent" DPS. Maybe you and your guild is fine with mediocrity, but most of us aren't.
Attack power will outperform haste on a couple of fights in all of ICC. If your guild is stuck on these fights on heroic, it may be worth regemming/enchanting. If you don't feel like doing that, you'll be just fine with haste.

[Sarkastic]

i understand that but like the first guy said haste is generally good for none movement fights like saurfang. im assuming that you have simed using both ap and haste how much of a overall increase did you get from haste

[Spongy]

Your methodology is quite sound.

I don't really care what "your take" is on the issue. Haste sims out better. You can't argue that. Do you think the sim decides what stats are better based on rolling dice? It's a series of mathematical equations. I don't know about you, but I don't care what gemming gives me "acceptable" or "decent" DPS. Maybe you and your guild is fine with mediocrity, but most of us aren't.
Attack power will outperform haste on a couple of fights in all of ICC. If your guild is stuck on these fights on heroic, it may be worth regemming/enchanting. If you don't feel like doing that, you'll be just fine with haste.

Wow... I respect the sims and the effort put into them but there is always things you cant take into account such a human error server lag a persons fps/ ping in a raid you can estimate the change you cant be specific. Haste sims out better on fights you dont move, so point out to me mr a couple of fights ap is better last time i checked the amount of current icc content has 2 bosses where this is viable unless you are extremely lucky on say rotface or 100% on boss on lady. Also your point about acceptable or decent dps, is stupid do you know why peope dont have a specific thing to gem because ther is no clear winner, they are very similar both have ther ups and downs. The safest thing to do is go with AP, although haste might be a 50 dps upgrade sometimes.

I personally according to sim haste is better, am i haste gemmed no?

[Sarkastic]

i hear ya man i respect the sims to which is why when ever i can find one on here that people post i compare it to my own. I guess i was just trying to get my point across that it honestly doesnt matter unless you an anal ass person who demands perfection in a game and i mean that in the nicest way possible :P

[Gunwolf]

Your methodology is quite sound.

I don't really care what "your take" is on the issue. Haste sims out better. You can't argue that. Do you think the sim decides what stats are better based on rolling dice? It's a series of mathematical equations. I don't know about you, but I don't care what gemming gives me "acceptable" or "decent" DPS. Maybe you and your guild is fine with mediocrity, but most of us aren't.
Attack power will outperform haste on a couple of fights in all of ICC. If your guild is stuck on these fights on heroic, it may be worth regemming/enchanting. If you don't feel like doing that, you'll be just fine with haste.

Your methodology is quite sound.

I don't really care what "your take" is on the issue. Haste sims out better. You can't argue that. Do you think the sim decides what stats are better based on rolling dice? It's a series of mathematical equations. I don't know about you, but I don't care what gemming gives me "acceptable" or "decent" DPS. Maybe you and your guild is fine with mediocrity, but most of us aren't.
Attack power will outperform haste on a couple of fights in all of ICC. If your guild is stuck on these fights on heroic, it may be worth regemming/enchanting. If you don't feel like doing that, you'll be just fine with haste.

I think it's misleading to suggest haste, or claim it to be the best for min/maxing.

For Casual and experienced players, if you are looking for a guaranteed dps upgrade that will be effective in a variety of encounters.....you should GEM AP.

For the experienced players, if you feel like AP isn't enough and wanna min/max, get the sim, put your stats in with AP then haste and decide if the DPS upgrade is enough to warrant changing all your gear.

You shouldn't advise people to gem haste, there are many more situations where AP will prove more effective then Haste....mainly because of boss mechanics, but also factors like human error or latency. For example, your MW5 procs right when you just hit your earthshock. You now have to wait a GCD to shoot off that instant LB, which makes all that haste stacking useless since you didn't take advantage of it. Also, any period of time you are kiting fire away from the raid, avoiding death traps, chasing an add or helping a teammate....you are doing zero melee damage to the boss and the only things that still are (magma, shocks, nova) all get 100% benefit from AP and ZERO from haste.

There is a topic about this already saying this same thing.....to use the simulator and your brain to decide for yourself. If you are too lazy or not interested enough...simply want a guaranteed and effective way to boost your dps, gem pure AP.

[LyskaWF]

I think it's misleading to suggest haste, or claim it to be the best for min/maxing.

I'll forward that to our friends at EJ.
http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t88300-e...on_3_3_onward/

You shouldn't advise people to gem haste

I didn't. I'll be the first to tell people to sim it because it depends on your gear. I had two sets of gear for TotC.

[Fornaw]

80 dps upgrade with my gear to gem haste, take away a few buffs (like I'm running a 10 man) and AP sims out better. I'm sticking with AP until I think the gain on the sim is enough to beat out the extra damage gained from AP over haste on fights like Putricide or Blood Princes. Haste is best for fights like Festergut, Rotface and Saurfang. Festergut, Rotface and Saurfang are not hard...

[Deleted]

The only reason i go with AP insted of haste is cause im playing with FN glyphed and specced, and im using it as much as i can. If i wouldnt use it as much as i do, i would gem Haste.

[Simbert]

I don't really care what "your take" is on the issue. Haste sims out better. You can't argue that. Do you think the sim decides what stats are better based on rolling dice?

Actually, it does. But it rolls so many dice that you come to a safe conclusion using stochastics. I do not want to criticize your post, just thought i should point that out.

And, obvoiusly, the sims always model a patchwork-esque fight, while other stats can prove superior in different situations. For example, as a shaman, the value of ap grows relatively to haste if there is more movement and time off the target involved.

This non-modelled behavious is something that should be taken into consideration if simulations lead to a close call. And not gemming the theoretically best stat on a patchwerkesque-fight has nothing to do with mediocrity, but with a different set of prioritys. Not everyone thinks that Tank&Spank should be the type of fight they should optimize their gear towards, especially since most difficult fights involve some mechanics which force you to do something different than standing in one spot and pulling your rotation until the boss dies.

This can, for example, make something like runspeed/rocket boots much better than a simulation leads you to believe. When using models, one should always be aware of their limitations, so as to not gain false conclusions.

[LyskaWF]

Actually, it does. But it rolls so many dice that you come to a safe conclusion using stochastics.

Oh FFS I meant a single six sided die assigning 1-6 to each stat and rolling it until each stat came up once >.<

[Sarkastic]

well im glad this is getting alot of looks and im sure people who are confused or intrested in switching things up will get a lot of info from these replys keep em comming

[psyched]

I'll forward that to our friends at EJ.
http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t88300-e...on_3_3_onward/

Haste sims better for that setup! Which probably u´ll never have ! There are some posts warning that BiS is just a show of potential. "should be taken with a grain of salt" etc. And For what it's worth BiS setup is not even final. Sim is WIN. Haste is not better for everything and everyone.

[myrddinde]

I have around 620 haste without a single haste gem. It is nice for single target, but generally I prefer for AP and AP/crit. Crit is not far behind on single target and is even on 2 and better on 3+ targets ... The difference is not huge anyhow, we are talking about what .. 2-3 dps per gem, that is definitely something I can live with.

[Torture]

I respecced from Ele to Enhance this week.

I've therefore been simming a LOT as my gear has been changing very rapidly (you know what it's like when you change spec and find you only have a blue stren cloak and caster trinkets!)

I've found simming far more reliable than forum opinion and I guess that's why the sticky has always directed people on that path.

For me, the most fun has been the fact 'Dying Curse' from my old Ele gear sims higher than a lot of melee trinkets!

[Boboca]

... its very similar but haste wins on a single target non moving fight and ap wins on everything else...

My opinion is AP/Crit... where is the fight when u no need to move, interrupt... ok... one: Deathbringer Saurfang. Also for Haste you need very good computer and very low latency.

[Maerad]

Dosn't really matter if you go haste or AP, both scales superb with a melee shaman. And I really like the magic/physic combinations - mostly it dosn't matter if I use the magic power flask or the attack one, both scales nice

Well - AP is a bit better in a "much to run fight" ...

[LyskaWF]

Haste sims better for that setup! Which probably u´ll never have ! There are some posts warning that BiS is just a show of potential. "should be taken with a grain of salt" etc. And For what it's worth BiS setup is not even final. Sim is WIN. Haste is not better for everything and everyone.

This is true, however, haste has been coming out on top since fairly early on in ToC, so it should be for most people who haven't just dinged 80. As I've said before, I wouldn't advise anyone to go the haste route. It's a different playstyle, but better. I do it and I put out numbers very close to what I should be according to the sim, so it's worth it.