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  1. #1

    Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Hey

    I just have a quick question, for a holy priest, what shoulder enchant should i go for?
    +24SP and 8Mp5 or the +24SP and +15Crit

    Dinged 80 not so long ago, so still trying to figure it all out with the different specs
    It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all outta gum!


  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk
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    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    If you need the MP5 go for the MP5 one, if you don't go for the crit one.

  3. #3

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Well i have 22K+ mana pool totally unbuffed right now, and for the moment im only healing 5 man HC, still gathering gear, and i have 496Mp5 unbuffed.
    And i dont have mana problems there.
    So dont really know if i need it or not.
    It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all outta gum!


  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans -Ethos-'s Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Sp+Crit all the way.

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  5. #5

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Exera
    If you need the MP5 go for the MP5 one, if you don't go for the crit one.
    You never need mp/5.... if you're holy crit = mana due to SoL and HC. If you're disc crit = throughput due to Divine Aegis.

  6. #6

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    MP/5 is superior if you have >30% Holy crit unbuffed as Holy. Crit does translate partially to mana regen, but the amount of regen you get from 15 crit rating should be worth ~.1 mp/5. Take the crit as Disc, not because crit is good (it isn't), but because you don't need any regen.

  7. #7

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    MP/5 is superior if you have >30% Holy crit unbuffed as Holy. Crit does translate partially to mana regen, but the amount of regen you get from 15 crit rating should be worth ~.1 mp/5. Take the crit as Disc, not because crit is good (it isn't), but because you don't need any regen.
    And if you have enough gear for 30% crit as holy you can go oom... lol

  8. #8

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    MP5

    1 MP5 costs twice as much itemization as a stat point. This means you can get 2 spirit or 1 MP5 for the same itemization cost. As a consequence, The MP5 stat is really worth 0.5 MP5. This number never scale with anything. It also doesn't hold the secondary benefits that f.ex spirit grants you, with 0.25 spellpower per point of spirit, or int, which grants 1/166th % of crit. For this reason, MP5 is usually considered subpar for holypriests. But at low gear levels, it is the best stat for regen.
    From Priest Holy value of intellect thread

  9. #9
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    To a certain extent, I'll agree that one should take the MP5 version if in need of mana and Crit if not; however, one also has to remember that MP5 is generally pretty awful for Holy Priests. So, in general, unless you're desperate for regen to the point that you're socketting heavily for regen, you're generally better off taking the Crit. As a point of reference, I switched to the Crit version over the MP5 versions when I got my T7.5 Hat and Shoulders and never felt the need to switch back. Of course, since then, regen has been nerfed a fair bit, but better gear is also a heck of a lot easier to come by. So, I'd say, unless you're somehow stuck in 200 or lower gear, since you'll quickly be getting 232+ gear, you'll probably find the Crit versions are better.

  10. #10

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    And if you have enough gear for 30% crit as holy you can go oom... lol
    Why yes, yes you can. You can hit 30% Holy crit with <20k mana in fact. Hell, with current content Holy is moving to Disc-style gemming and away from Int/Spirit gemming to be able to keep up marginally with Druids who are scaling so far ahead. If balancing regen/throughput gear and you wind up with 30%+ crit unbuffed you should really consider the mp/5 enchants. If you're still gemming for 30k+ mana unbuffed then no, you shouldn't. If you're actually concerned about keeping up with content and how it's changed since ToC? Then yeah, it's worth considering. I went from 32k mana as Holy in ToGC to 26k in ICC and lost ~100 spirit. No more Int trinkets, no more Int gemming.

  11. #11

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Sp/crit

    The only people who need regen would be recent 80s who are still in quest gear, this guy's gear sounds like he's out of that hole already.

  12. #12

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    If you're hesitant about picking up the crit enchant because you have "too much," then drop crit on your other peices, or put up with it. Despite being RNG, the crit is both mp5, and a bit of thoroughput. The mp5 on its own is just not. When faced with a dilemma, choose the lesser of two evils.
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  13. #13

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    1% crit = ~12 mp/5 = 45.91 crit rating. 15 crit rating = ~.326% crit = ~3.92 MP/5. Compare to 8 mp/5. 20 crit rating = ~.435% crit = 5.22 mp/5. Compare to 10 mp/5. Now compare the throughput gain of .326%/.435% crit, which is at best (100% healing from spells that can crit) +.16% and .2175% healing. For a Renew spec you're looking at more like .096% healing and .13% healing respectively. Additionally, we all know how crit tends to interact with over-healing, making it even less desirable.

    So again... if you're at a minimum threshold of crit (around 30% unbuffed) then taking the mp/5 is typically your best choice. The shoulders in particular are a good decision because not only is crit such a bad stat once you've reached a certain amount, the crit on the shoulder enchants is under-budget compared to the mp/5 gain. You should not be dropping crit on other pieces where crit/mp5 budget is more normalized. You should always take over-budget resources first when available, then work around your mana regen from there.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    harky, your math is correct, butI think you're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, the MP5 provided is slightly higher budget (expected value compared to 15 Crit is 7.5), but that doesn't mean it's the better enchant. Consider that for most Holy Priests regen is not an issue. In fact, I imagine most Holy Priests are in the boat of not gemming for regen because they get sufficient regen just from the Intellect and Spirit that comes on their gear. Thus, directly comparing the stat budgets isn't an accurate measurement of the choice being made, chances are, a Holy Priest who gets the MP5 enchant will likely gem for throughput (probably SP or Haste), but the one who picks Crit won't replace the Crit with MP5, they will probably gem for throughput (SP or Haste) and if they do need regen, they certainly wouldn't gem MP5. So, really, directly comparing the two stats' budgets doesn't make sense.

    So, yes, if you need the regen, the MP5 version is the clear choice, but unneeded regen is wasted itemization. Are you gemming for regen and still running out? Definitely get the MP5 version. Will it let you trade a regen gem for more throughput? Get the MP5 version. Yes, it's probably a better to leave the MP5 enchant until after you've gotten rid of superfluous Intellect and Spirit gems, but if you already have and still don't need the regen, why not get the Crit?

  15. #15

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    It's actually the opposite. While individually crit and mp/5 are lovely trees and they do stand amidst a broad and wonderful forest, you have to understand that forests are unique. The arguments I was replying to where first that you should never use the mp/5 enchant and second that once reaching a certain upper threshold where crit is devalued that you would have no mana problems anyway and therefor would take crit anyway. Both are flawed. First because the relative value of MP/5 and Crit are as they are and second due to the gross generalization and overstatement of how solid Holy's regen is.

    My argument, again, is that if you're reaching 30% Holy crit unbuffed then the MP5 enchants are feasible. Not that they are completely better in every respect, but that they should be considered. Since Holy prefers Haste/Spirit and Haste/Crit to Crit/Spirit a Priest who is picking upgrades properly and winds up with 30% crit unbuffed is going to have a very noticeable lack of Spirit, but also a very high amount of Haste. Lack of Spirit, while also not gemming for regen and also having high haste results in what? The ability to consume a lot of mana, but lacking in regen.

    So yes, there is a forest, but there's also a lovely country filled with other forests each with unique growth and needs. Dismissing MP/5 out of hand is not going to help, especially when the alternative is the worst throughput stat as well as beign the worst regen stat. Consider for a moment the implication of +.16% healing on 5k HPS over a 5 minute fight. That's 1.5m healing, plus an extra 2,400? Now compare the difference in mp/5, which is ~4 mp/5 (a little more, not the point), which over 5 minutes is 240 mana. A lot? No. However, if you compare to the HPM figures of most Priest spells you'll find that 240 mana converted to healing exceeds the extra 2.4k.

    TL;DR: If you're high on crit and low on regen stats then the mp/5 enchant isn't as bad as people are suggesting.

  16. #16

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Why yes, yes you can. You can hit 30% Holy crit with <20k mana in fact. Hell, with current content Holy is moving to Disc-style gemming and away from Int/Spirit gemming to be able to keep up marginally with Druids who are scaling so far ahead. If balancing regen/throughput gear and you wind up with 30%+ crit unbuffed you should really consider the mp/5 enchants. If you're still gemming for 30k+ mana unbuffed then no, you shouldn't. If you're actually concerned about keeping up with content and how it's changed since ToC? Then yeah, it's worth considering. I went from 32k mana as Holy in ToGC to 26k in ICC and lost ~100 spirit. No more Int trinkets, no more Int gemming.
    Sorry utter nonsense... the only way you can hit 30% holy crit < 20K mana would be to gem for crit and the expense of everything which in itself is a ridiculous strategy.

    If you have a natural 30K crit fromg gear/talents, which was the supposition put forward, you can't go oom. I have a very average holy offset that barely hits 25K mana and I can full spam in ICC25 for every encounter there is and not go oom. I gem purely for throughput, thats SP/Haste exlusively using purified for blue sockets. And when I do I generally output the most healing in my raid because when I sub in as a healers it's my role to free up GCD's for the healers to use on tanks etc.

    I am always extremely skeptical of anyone that says their mana is an issue, particularly if they have access to a moderate level of gear. The only time I ever felt my mana was a little dicey was well back at the beginging of ulduar when the spirit nerf was first in effect... that was a very long time ago and if healers haven't worked out now just how huge their mana pools is and how the healing game has changed from how do I heal effectively to how can I spam the max amount of heals and try to go oom... well they probably shouldn't be playing a healer.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    TL;DR: If you're high on crit and low on regen stats then the mp/5 enchant isn't as bad as people are suggesting.
    I completely agree with this, the problem is, a lot of the rest of your post is based on assumptions that I wasn't aware you were making. Yes, if you reach 30% Crit unbuffed, it's entirely possible that you're going to have mana problems from excessive sacrifice of Spirit, but it's not the excess Crit that makes the Crit enchant worst than the MP5 version but, instead, the lack of regen that makes the MP5 better. Obviously, if a Priest is having problems with mana, picking the MP5 version makes more sense, but that's really the least of his problems because, as you point out, the difference in either direction is extremely small, he probably needs to reevaluate his gearing, spell selection, or CD management.


    Also, I tend to use an alternative, and I think simpler, approach to comparing the relative values of Crit and MP5. The way in which you compared them essentially assumes that you will make use of every drop of mana. This makes sense in a situation where our goal is to end up with as little mana left as possible. However, in the current mana situation, I've shedded almost all the regen I can other than of dropping talent points from Meditation or Holy Concentration and I still usually end up around 20-30% in even the most mana intensive encounters, and in less intensive ones I may not even use all of my cooldowns. Mana will become only more excessive as I continue to upgrade to 264 gear. In BC I could always try using a higher rank of Greater Heal or a little less camping the FSR, but when I'm already darn near spamming on every GCD, there simply isn't a way to turn excessive regen back around into more throughput other than overkill with unnecessarily large heals (eg, PoH when two people in a party need heals) or sniping the other healers.

    Thus, it's not a level of Crit, Haste, SP, or whatever else that should determine the relative value of these enchants but, simply, whether or not you are comfortable with your regen.

  18. #18

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Again, my argument is not that the MP/5 enchants are better in all situations, but that they can be better in some. It is never a good idea to dismiss options without consideration of what those options entail. In this case it is sacrificing regen for the worst throughput stat in the game. Now, if you don't need that regen, then who cares. What I dislike is the notion that Holy can't go OOM, or other such nonsense. You must consider item values when making any argument based on relative values of stats as each piece of gear that you take will be deciding on a balance of stats available to you. Also while being 'comfortable' is a nice notion, it isn't a measurable one. It doesn't adequately deal with how mana decays throughout an encounter. Winding up at half mana is significantly closer to winding up OOM than most people realize when taking regen models into account most of the time. This is especially true with the new models where Int is the largest factor in regen.

    I'd also contend that it is important to understand specifically what you're trading stats for in the worst case scenario. From there you can compare it to your own situation. This isn't some extreme statement. On the other hand saying that no one ever needs the MP/5 enchants is very extreme and treating it as true is just going to mislead people. There's no need to reference excessive mana use, or sniping even. If you're not having mana problems then you should reanalyze your gear. Is there any way to trim regen in return for a good throughput gain? Converting 8-10 MP/5 for 15-20 crit is not going to be a noticeable gain in throughput, while it is a noticeable loss in regen. In the case of Holy what you're looking for is Spirit or crit to drop in favor of haste, typically.

    People really, really need to get away from analyzing everything in such extreme terms. That's what's causing so much confusion for healers recently. People see a stat and say it's bad because of some obscure notion, then go to any means to cast it aside. They don't actually discuss the stat and its value. Fire bad, rawr. That's about all. You should look at your specific case and see how it applies to you, but when speaking abstractly you do need to compare stats and situations that cause different resolutions. Like I said, every forest is different and has different trees and different rivers and is in a different location and so on. It isn't missing the forest for the trees, it's actually taking a look at the trees and how they combine to make the forest. Otherwise we're just slinging anecdotes.

  19. #19

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Holy can't go oom given a moderate level of gear (which is easily obtainable) and correct spell selection. If you think spamming PoH to heal every bit of damage is a smart strategy you will go oom.

    mp/5 is a very poor stat in comparison to the alternative on offer, while mp/5 might have been useful back when you did naxx in blues, that isn't the current playing environment and you should forgo and mp/5 enchants or gear. That is the correct advice to give, none of this advice that was relevant a year ago.

  20. #20

    Re: Shoulder enchant for holy priest

    Imo you cant just jump in and say "holy priests cant go oom if they are doing things right" because its not only up to us if you are thinking of a 25 man ICC raid. You haveto consider raid composition & how much people fuck up and take completely unecessary dmg etc.

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