Prot pally trinkets - ICC

[balloonknot]

No, I'm not saying EH is an incorrect measure, I am simply saying that EH itself can't be so simplified. It depends on numerous factors. Boiling it down to a single number is disingenous in my book.

Then you should not refer to what you are discussing as effective health, as effective health is a well defined single value. Your welcome to invent any term your wish and provide calculations to define what it means but don't confuse people by trying to redefine a term that been around for 4 years.

I already said "It might have been entirely something else. So I'll keep using it and see if maybe it is having an effect or maybe it is irrelevant." after I said that the run was smoother. You shouldn't address a small portion of my post out of context without even addressing the fact that I already discussed how little the smoothness meant. I pay attention to results, not some number calculated according to some program or formula out of the game. And this, to me, is a superior methodology. You can disagree all you want, you are free to do that.

So when you fail to down a boss, what analysis do you use to understand why you failed to down him?

I didn't "feel" that it worked better. It was a much smoother run with noticeable results such as downing Blood Queen for the first time. I usually pay more attention to the Damage Taken setting on Recount than the Damage Done setting. I can easily look at Recount and see if perhaps this trinket is reducing my damage intake which is all that matters since I have outgeared the content from an EH perspective.

Unless you can scientifically define "smoother" it is a feeling.

Damage Taken is a terrible measure of your effectiveness as a tank unless your healers are going OOM and entirely dependent on the length of the fight, which is usually a measure of the dps's performance, not yours. Reference my earlier posts regarding the fallacy that reducing damage intake by a small amount has any impact on your healers.

[Nikoll]

It's not that bad on a paladin, but man, offtanking Moroes on my warrior back in the day made me rage so hard. I was like "LOOK AT ME I'M PISSED OFF FILL UP MY DAMN RAGE BAR."

They should make a sensor that comes with WoW for the warrior class and your rage bar fills up according to how mad you, the player, are.

But the rage bar only goes to 100...

[Ganoes]

Then you should not refer to what you are discussing as effective health, as effective health is a well defined single value. Your welcome to invent any term your wish and provide calculations to define what it means but don't confuse people by trying to redefine a term that been around for 4 years.

So when you fail to down a boss, what analysis do you use to understand why you failed to down him?

Unless you can scientifically define "smoother" it is a feeling.

Damage Taken is a terrible measure of your effectiveness as a tank unless your healers are going OOM and entirely dependent on the length of the fight, which is usually a measure of the dps's performance, not yours. Reference my earlier posts regarding the fallacy that reducing damage intake by a small amount has any impact on your healers.

"Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail -- assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active."

This is what EH is. It depends on numerous variables for the fight. Is the fight pure magic damage? Then armor does not enter your EH calculation. Not every fight uses the same formula. Stating that it does is disingenous.

When I fail to down a boss? If it's because I died then I will look at Recount's death list and I will examine the damage I took before I died and how I can mitigate it. If it's because of some other factor such as low dps then I will start to investigate more deeply into the dps and what they are doing.

Scientifically? Stop trolling. This is a game.

Damage taken is a very useful statistic. I don't know how your group does it but my healers do not spam heals on the tank the entire fight. Take Blood Queen. I will not have heals spammed on me when my boss is not the active boss. If the warlock tank is focused, for instance, the healers will spam heals on him. Any damage I can avoid during this portion of the fight makes the fight that much easier. You are not accurately describing the game. Not every fight is the same. Not every fight requires the same healing tactics. Have you ever played a healer?

[Worshaka]

All but the organ are ones you should pick up. Organ is more of a feral tank item.

use the 2 stams for most encounters, use avoidance ones for fast hitting bosses. Just use what's appropriate.

Its not like the armor calculation is different for bears, armor is good for any tanking class in the fact that all tanks get hit 20% more often now makes armor even more valuable.

While armor appears to have diminishing returns it actually has a linear relationship with time to live, this is the main reason why armor is so tasty. In addition armor is gauranteed mitigation vs a chance to avoid, so it's benefits are not subject to RNG.

As you can see with warrior and pally T10 itemisation, they have been changed to incorporate more armor, this is another indicator how valuable armor is and you'll see a lot of the cutting edge tanks stack armor.

[Nikoll]

Its not like the armor calculation is different for bears, armor is good for any tanking class in the fact that all tanks get hit 20% more often now makes armor even more valuable.

While armor appears to have diminishing returns it actually has a linear relationship with time to live, this is the main reason why armor is so tasty. In addition armor is gauranteed mitigation vs a chance to avoid, so it's benefits are not subject to RNG.

As you can see with warrior and pally T10 itemisation, they have been changed to incorporate more armor, this is another indicator how valuable armor is and you'll see a lot of the cutting edge tanks stack armor.

yeah, but they took the avoidence stats off. sorta killed it at the same time they buffed it.

[balloonknot]

"Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail -- assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active."

Where did you get this gem from? Everyone else defines it as the amount of physical damage required to kill a tank with 0 healing. Google effective health, i can't find your definition anywhere. As i said, your creating your own definition for something that have been around for 4 years.

Damage taken is a very useful statistic. I don't know how your group does it but my healers do not spam heals on the tank the entire fight. Take Blood Queen. I will not have heals spammed on me when my boss is not the active boss. If the warlock tank is focused, for instance, the healers will spam heals on him. Any damage I can avoid during this portion of the fight makes the fight that much easier. You are not accurately describing the game. Not every fight is the same. Not every fight requires the same healing tactics. Have you ever played a healer?

I assume you mean Council not Blood queen. I tank both the fire and kinetic guys and our OT tanks keleseth. So yes i receive constant heals. As a side note, why does it matter if they are empowered or not as to how much healing you receive? i haven't noticed the empowered prince hitting any harder with his melee swings than a non-powered. Only the keleseth tank should be taking more damage on an empowered. I could be wrong, i haven't parsed the logs to be sure.

holy is my offspec on my paly and i have a priest specced disc/holy although he's disc 99% of the time, so i'm tank healing. Priest runs ICC10 weekly tho i mostly have used him and my hunter to farm frost badges to get the primordials for the crafted pants/legs.

[Ganoes]

Where did you get this gem from? Everyone else defines it as the amount of physical damage required to kill a tank with 0 healing. Google effective health, i can't find your definition anywhere. As i said, your creating your own definition for something that have been around for 4 years.

I assume you mean Council not Blood queen. I tank both the fire and kinetic guys and our OT tanks keleseth. So yes i receive constant heals. As a side note, why does it matter if they are empowered or not as to how much healing you receive? i haven't noticed the empowered prince hitting any harder with his melee swings than a non-powered. Only the keleseth tank should be taking more damage on an empowered. I could be wrong, i haven't parsed the logs to be sure.

holy is my offspec on my paly and i have a priest specced disc/holy although he's disc 99% of the time, so i'm tank healing. Priest runs ICC10 weekly tho i mostly have used him and my hunter to farm frost badges to get the primordials for the crafted pants/legs.

I got that definition from tankspot.com.

Yeah, I meant council. My group does it entirely different. We have our bear tank one, I tank one, and our warlock tanks the other. We've found that this is the best method and we one shot the fight in record time each week so we aren't really planning on changing our methods up. And the Keleseth tank gets both healers spamming on him while the other two tanks don't get nearly as many heals during this phase.

My point is that when you surpass the EH required for a fight (to me, if I can survive three strong hits in a row then I outgear it from an EH perspective), reducing any damage intake is superior to just boosting your EH to even more absurd numbers. This is why I use the Corpse Tongue Coin in 10 mans. I also use it on particular 25 man fights like Saurfang and tanking Rotface. I use my Jug's Vitality on other fights like Putricide and Festergut in 25 man because the hits are harder so I might not be able to take 3 hits in a row easily.

Also, the Corpse Tongue Coin can be called, in some respects, a limited boost to your EH because of the armor proc. If I dip below 35% it will proc assuming it didn't just proc. It has no random nature. It only procs when I need it and it has a relatively short cooldown.

[balloonknot]

I got that definition from tankspot.com.

Link?

All the tank spot guide i've seen define EH correctly or make reference to Theck's efforts to incorporate multiple damage types: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

EDIT here is tankspots guide on EH: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...AC-and-Stamina

[Ganoes]

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-Health-Theory

[balloonknot]

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-Health-Theory

Other interesting quotes from this post:

"Notice - This guide needs to be updated. There are clearly encounters where Avoidance is superior to Effective Health, such as Prince in Karazhan. Will have an update ASAP. - Mar 28 '08"

"Even though this may sound obvious, it needs to be repeated that every increase in Armor gives linear and potent scaling to the effectiveness of Stamina." (no longer linear)

"There are a few people who have made comments regarding why Avoidance stats may be better. One poster mentioned that he would rather have 10% Dodge from gems than Stamina. The equivalent of that 10% Dodge would be 2,835 HP" (thing hasn't been updated since pre DR on avoidance)

[emitanks]

If you use the key you are a scrub go die in a fire

No. I like the stam. When you have two stam trinkets, and there's a better stam trinket with a use that's not embarrassing to look at, damn right you take it.

[cappytoi]

If you use the key you are a scrub go die in a fire

your contribution to topic is plain awesome with your correct and logical reasons. thank you.

[holaadios]

The buffing of armour stats on T10 says quite a lot about Blizz thinking (same as the removal of avoidance stats from the same items)

The problem with continuing with this design (e.g. Big hits in shorter times), is that can only be continued to be allow to scale if the health pools are duplicated (or more). Otherwise that will be it, back at nuking with big heals for 5 minutes.

Regarding trinkets, I think this is part of the problem (*quoted from blue)

We also probably just need to drop more of them. That doesn’t mean they should be trivial to acquire, but when say a caster only has 2 good options in Ulduar and 1 requires a hard mode, then there is going to be ton of competition when they do drop. We know it’s rough when the trinket you have been wanting finally drops and you have to roll against 10 other people for it. Having more trinkets would mean more variety, which means players may want different ones and ultimately will be a little more different from their friends/guildmates.

People can not understand that going back to do older content is needed (if you care to get the most effective pieces) Certainly this will not applicable for most gear, but, for some offhands/shield/tanking items and some trinkets, it is.

[Geekbustarz]

Take Blood Queen. I will not have heals spammed on me when my boss is not the active boss.

Lmao. I dunno what you're on m8 but blood queen is 1 boss, not several :

[luthe]

why was this thread necrod?