ICC wings

[tanked]

Im not sure if anyone has mentioned this before, I was browsing around and couldnt find it.

Well, I was running icc25 tonight, and after we downed saurfang 2 people had to leave. Then we wipe once on festergut and 2 more people had to leave. They didnt leave b/c we wiped, but said they couldn't stay any longer. We were only in there for about an hour so far though.. Its like no one can stay more then an hour and half - 2 hours.

This has happened to me way to many times. People seem to not have to time to stay and clear more then 1 or 2 wings a night. Honestly, I do not even like to stay there that long. RL stuff comes up, or I get hungry to where I don't want to just grab a snack I want a full meal. (which will take longer then a 5min bio break)

Anyways, my point is I think they should change ICC and all future raids that have wings to this:

- You still have to down the end wing bosses in order to fight the last boss, is this case the LK.
- Instead of having to go threw the first 4 bosses each week, you can just choose which wing to go to. (future raids may obviously have fewer or more then 4 bosses in the first wing, but you know what I mean)

The reason for this is that it still makes the LK a challenge just to get to him. It also allows everyone to bypass the first 4 bosses and go to a different wing so they dont have to spend the time downing them. That will be especially helpful for most of us in a few weeks once we get basically everything we need from them and it starts to feel like a waste of time fighting them just so you can get to the other bosses.

Some of you may think that an hour isnt that long to spend getting past them. That hour could much better be spent on the other wings where we are trying to progress.
Even if we did 1 shot every boss in ICC, say we only wanted to do plague wing and blood princes. We dont want to have to spend an hour just to get there ya know?

Well thats my idea. Sorry this is kinda long only to say something as simple as make all wings accessible instead of fighting threw the first four. I just wanted to try to make my case.

Oh, and to those who are going to flame me saying "zomg just spend an hour killing them newb its nothing" save your key strokes. I know its not that long, but as I said some people have an issue staying there that long, and frankly its a change that everyone would like Im sure. Since you still have to down end wing bosses to fight the LK anyway.

[Deleted]

- You still have to down the end wing bosses in order to fight the last boss, is this case the LK.
this is already implemented
- Instead of having to go threw the first 4 bosses each week, you can just choose which wing to go to.
extend

anyway stupid topic...change the instance cuz i cant run it ROFL

[Duulis]

Why not re-assemble the group in another time then? If you simply don't have time to down all the bosses in one week, you can just extend the raid lockout for another week and continue.

[Deleted]

Honestly, if your having a problem getting people to stay then you have one 2 options, since this will never happen.

1. Prio your raids, have more than 1 night for this certain raid
2. Get new people that wont leave after 1 hour, its not valid raiding time -.-


500th post!

[seam]

Besides, why wouldn't you want to do the first four bosses? Extra gear to help progress, and badges to help get tier gear.

[Glnger]

Because then you would end up with bosses being passed over and guildies QQing and arguing over which bosses to do/skip. This sounds like a pug problem not a guild problem. ie not inviting the 1hour raiders in the future or reforming another night. I have a feeling it will end up being like how ulduar and naxx started out being 2 night raids for some guilds, but after a few weeks of seeing the content became 1 night raids. I think its really silly to even make a post complaining about the final raid of the xpac's length before the last bosses are even out yet. Most pugs realize that your average icc pug group wont be downing plague bosses (yet atleast) without a few wipes, and they probably don't want to sit through that.

[tanked]

- You still have to down the end wing bosses in order to fight the last boss, is this case the LK.
this is already implemented
- Instead of having to go threw the first 4 bosses each week, you can just choose which wing to go to.
extend

anyway stupid topic...change the instance cuz i cant run it ROFL

If its a stupid topic gtfo? I never said I cant run it, I said people have a problem staying more then 2 hours.


It seems everyone is missing the point here. I dont want to skip the first 4 bosses all together, I just thought it would be better if we could choose which wing to go to first. Its already like that to a point. You can choose to do plague or crimson halls, soon frostwing halls, in any order. All Im saying is let us choose to do the first 4 after the others.

This isnt me saying "nerf icc its hard wtf" or anything, its simply saying let us pick who to fight.

I cant believe how ignorant some people are.

[KandyCane]

Because there'd be a lot of logic in people just skipping past the bosses actually defending the entrance to the Citadel, am I right?

Just because you can't get a PuG to finish more than one wing, doesn't mean the instance needs to be changed. You should be thankful you can even run it with a PuG in the first place.

If you're desperate to clear the other wings, I recommend getting a casual guild(sounds like you don't have a lot of time for raiding, so I guess hardcode-raiding isn't you).

EDIT:

I cant believe how ignorant some people are.

[darkwarrior42]

If its a stupid topic gtfo? I never said I cant run it, I said people have a problem staying more then 2 hours.


It seems everyone is missing the point here. I dont want to skip the first 4 bosses all together, I just thought it would be better if we could choose which wing to go to first. Its already like that to a point. You can choose to do plague or crimson halls, soon frostwing halls, in any order. All Im saying is let us choose to do the first 4 after the others.

This isnt me saying "nerf icc its hard wtf" or anything, its simply saying let us pick who to fight.

I cant believe how ignorant some people are.

I understand what you're saying perfectly. In case there is any confusion at all, I will phrase it like this: instead of there being an intro, followed by 3 wings that can be done in any order, followed by the Lich King, you want there to essentially be 4 wings: one ending Sindragosa, one ending in Putricide, one ending in Blood Queen, and one ending in Deathbringer Saurfang... and you want these wings to be doable in any order, so that a raid that only wants to do plague wing (Festergut, Rotface, Putricide) doesn't have to do Saurfang's bunch. To ensure that all bosses would still need to be defeated, Saurfang would be added to the list of bosses that must be killed to access the Lich King, a requirement that already exists but needs not be stated since you have to kill him one way or another under the current system.

Having stated that I completely understand what you want, now allow me to say that I completely oppose it.
1) Even being a game, there should still be some feeling that you assaulting an enemy stronghold. The wings give you some leeway in how you want to proceed, but before you can choose which part of the citadel you want to access you have to actually get in. There's a reason the achievement for killing the first four bosses is called "Storming the Citadel".
2) It's Icecrown Citadel, the fortress stronghold of the Lich King. Why in the world would he allow you to choose what to do? As far as I'm concerned, we're lucky we get any choice at all regarding the 3 wings that exist already.
3) This is the final raid of the expansion. It's not supposed to be easily completed by pugs or casual guilds in 1 hour. It's not supposed to be set up so that you can always reset and just go wherever you like, doing a full clear minus the lich king in tiny 1-hour bites over the course of a month. It is supposed to take some time and effort.

You don't like that you are required to defeat the gate guardians before you can pass through the gate. I understand that. But honestly, this is ICC and the Lich King. It's supposed to be accessible to non-hardcore raiders given Blizzards philosophy this expansion, but accessible doesn't mean "I get to fight exactly which bosses I want when I want without doing anything else". Accessible in this case may well mean nothing more than "we can get in and down the first four bosses". Compare that to what pugs and casual guilds could do in Sunwell Plateau, where raids formed for the sole purpose of farming trash weren't always successful, and ICC comes out ahead by a pretty big margin.

In short: get people who will stick around longer, go back more than one night per week, or extend your raid lockout and choose not to reset the following week. If you are unable or unwilling to do any of these things, accept that the Bosses assigned to keep you out of ICC have successfully done so.

[Gawron]

It seems everyone is missing the point here. I dont want to skip the first 4 bosses all together, I just thought it would be better if we could choose which wing to go to first. Its already like that to a point. You can choose to do plague or crimson halls, soon frostwing halls, in any order. All Im saying is let us choose to do the first 4 after the others.

They have already done something like this before, it was called Naxx. Personally, I like it the way it is. If everyone can't stay long enough to clear another wing, just get everyone together again later in the week for another hour or so.

[tanked]

Because there'd be a lot of logic in people just skipping past the bosses actually defending the entrance to the Citadel, am I right?

Just because you can't get a PuG to finish more than one wing, doesn't mean the instance needs to be changed. You should be thankful you can even run it with a PuG in the first place.

If you're desperate to clear the other wings, I recommend getting a casual guild(sounds like you don't have a lot of time for raiding, so I guess hardcode-raiding isn't you).

EDIT:

Now this is a logical reply. I didnt even think of it that way, about the guarding the entrance thing. Thats a good point.

I run with my guild on 1 toon, which goes good. But yes, on my alt the pug's cant seem to stay longer then an hour or 2. We dont really have a problem difficulty wise, just time ya know?

They have already done something like this before, it was called Naxx. Personally, I like it the way it is. If everyone can't stay long enough to clear another wing, just get everyone together again later in the week for another hour or so.

I've been trying this. Sadly people always say they will come, but dont even log on the next day.

[tanked]

darkwarrior, your reply is possibly the most thought out counter argument I've ever read.

Its not that I want it to be easy, or that I want to clear it faster. I just thought it was a decent idea to be able to do them in any order, kinda like naxx as another person mentioned.

But after reading this, and thinking about it. It makes sense to not skip them. I didnt think about the achivment thing, or the lore / RP aspect of it. Or the common sense of the "gate keeper" thing.

Usually the pugs I am in on my alt do very well, but the time thing is what deters people. But I agree with most of what you said. I'd go into more detail but it would look like a wall of text and all I really have to say is - touche

My idea is not that decent after all, now that I see it from a different perspective.

[General Vezax]

So you would want the 5 parts split?

You could make each wing and the Lich King separate instances, but you have to clear the first one to do the other three wings, and you have to do those to do the lich king, but all in one lockout.

[Evolixe]

naxxramas?

[Herecius]

Seems people have just gotten overly spoiled being able to clear ToC in a single flask. ICC is big. It may take you a full 3 hours to push in, kill the first four, move on, kill perhaps 2 more wings (assuming no wipes on the endbosses of said wings), and then stop for the night. You would come back the next night (or perhaps just later in the week) and press onwards, and kill what's remaining, and maybe even come back a third night. This isn't meant to be something cleared by a PUG; the first four bosses are for pugs, maybe Festergut or Rotface for an exceptional pug or something, but you will want a dedicated raiding guild to actually try and clear it. It's just that simple.

It wouldn't make any sense anyhow to be able to skip the first four bosses, because the entire point of the first four bosses is that they are the first bosses you hit in ICC.

[ChildeRoland]

3 words. Extend Raid Lock.

[Tablemaker]

I remember staying in Molten Core for 4-5 hours.

In the last 4-5 years, the same people that used to run Molten Core for 4-5 hours have grown up and become adults and have more on their plate than asking their mother to bring them hot pockets.

The game has changed and so has its playerbase... The majority of people just don't have the time for 4-5 hour long raids anymore.

That being said... The first 4 bosses in ICC are Pug-Friendly. I am sorry if your pugs are having trouble doing the harder encounters that even many guilds struggle with. You should be pretty happy in being able to get at least one token from Saurfang.

[Gobber]

Work on upping your speed, if your efficient, getting through the entrance shouldn't take more than an hour.

Your suggestion of being able to access any wing straight away kinda spoils it IMO.

If you hadn't noticed the lore is getting past the first two bosses who act like entrance guards. Then boarding the gunship of your faction to fly up further to infiltrate the main part of ICC, to then have to face of deathbringer saurfang which finally brings you to the main part of ICC.

Now I really like that layout, and I think changing it so every man and his puggy dogs can go tackle rotface straight away is just stupid.

[DocQuantum]

You can improve your speed, extend the raid lockout, or - if you have a really short attention span - not bother playing WoW and move on to something faster. (We're sort of debating whether extending the raid lockout is where we want to be as a guild, in order to get more time on the later bosses.)

Personally, if you're not willing to put in at least a little time, why bother playing? I'm all for small "time savers" (e.g., teleporters in instances to get us from point A to point B faster)... but skipping the majority of a raid just because someone got hungry seems like lack of focus, IMO.