Femaledwarf says MM > Surv with all my AGI gem ???

[Xexphone]

my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...th&cn=Xexphone

i try both spec with Femaledwarf and it says that
my MM spec is 9794.10DPS [ change DMC to Needle and remove ArS from list ]
and my Surv Spec is 9672.19DPS

so can anyone explain this ...
my Surv should do more DPS than MM , right?
but its not , so why?


and 1more question
Do we have Crit Cap ?

[Infs]

Your gear is more than sufficient for MM to do equal or better dps compared to SV.

Critcap is 100%, or well something like 103.8% or something due to bosses being 3 levels above us. So basically we don't have a critcap to worry about.

[Iosif]

MM Scales better with higher gear levels even with AGI.

There are 2 ways to play MM, first is a traditnal way or commonly refered to as "AGI MM" the other is by using Armor Pen commonly referred to as "ArP MM"

Agi MM uses CS>AiS>ArS>SSx3 (Priority)
Advantages is you have higher AP/CRIT so your ArS/Volly hit harder and you can switch from SV to MM with out having a completely separate set of Gear.
Disadvantages is more of your physical attacks are mitigated making for lower bleed damage.

ArP MM uses CS>AiS>SSx4 (Priority)
Advantages is you have a vary high single target DPS, ArP bosses your physical damage so the loss of AP/Crit is transparent.
Disadvantages is you have a bit lower AP/Crit and you have to carry a completely separate set of gear for SV/BM or Agi-MM

Around T9+ MM pulls ahead of all specs some...

[Kamos]

MM Scales better with higher gear levels even with AGI.

There are 2 ways to play MM, first is a traditnal way or commonly refered to as "AGI MM" the other is by using Armor Pen commonly referred to as "ArP MM"

Agi MM uses CS>AiS>ArS>SSx3 (Priority)
Advantages is you have higher AP/CRIT so your ArS/Volly hit harder and you can switch from SV to MM with out having a completely separate set of Gear.
Disadvantages is more of your physical attacks are mitigated making for lower bleed damage.

ArP MM uses CS>AiS>SSx4 (Priority)
Advantages is you have a vary high single target DPS, ArP bosses your physical damage so the loss of AP/Crit is transparent.
Disadvantages is you have a bit lower AP/Crit and you have to carry a completely separate set of gear for SV/BM or Agi-MM

Around T9+ MM pulls ahead of all specs some...

no no no no no.

There is no such thing as Arp MM and Agi MM anymore.

It's a DPS gain for even modestly geared hunters to drop arcane shot, based on CRIT as well as arp.

You regem for arp when it is a DPS gain to do so, at high arp levels. You don't just choose which one sounds better and gem that way, you gem whatever gives the most dps for your gear.

[Iosif]

no no no no no.

There is no such thing as Arp MM and Agi MM anymore.

It's a DPS gain for even modestly geared hunters to drop arcane shot, based on CRIT as well as arp.

You regem for arp when it is a DPS gain to do so, at high arp levels. You don't just choose which one sounds better and gem that way, you gem whatever gives the most dps for your gear.

I respectfully disagree with you.

Depending on gear... If you are playing an AGI-MM you target the same gear as SV hunters (AGI / Hit(to the cap)/ Crit / ArP / Hast). I carry a SV set of gear although i don't currently have a SV spec, When I load that in to the Hunter Spreadsheet and prioritize ArS over SS i gain 122DPS.

There reaches a point around 600ish passive ArP that SS starts to out preform ArS in DPS. Since ArP is so readily available there really is no reason for a 232+ geared hunter to not be prioritizing SS over ArS.

What the original poster was seeing was just this were his AGI/AP is so high that ArS is still scaling better then SS, till he get a modest amount of ArP this will continue to be the case.

[Guitarn]

I respectfully disagree with you.

Depending on gear... If you are playing an AGI-MM you target the same gear as SV hunters (AGI / Hit(to the cap)/ Crit / ArP / Hast). I carry a SV set of gear although i don't currently have a SV spec, When I load that in to the Hunter Spreadsheet and prioritize ArS over SS i gain 122DPS.

There reaches a point around 600ish passive ArP that SS starts to out preform ArS in DPS. Since ArP is so readily available there really is no reason for a 232+ geared hunter to not be prioritizing SS over ArS.

What the original poster was seeing was just this were his AGI/AP is so high that ArS is still scaling better then SS, till he get a modest amount of ArP this will continue to be the case.

You're still trying to say there are both an Agi and an ArP MM spec: there are not. Once you get a certain amount of ArP/crit, you drop Arcane Shot and respec accordingly. You still gem Agi until you get an ArP trinket and the proc + gear + gems will get you 100% (or just until a spreadsheet says it's better).

You don't just choose to go ArP; you have to wait until you have the gear to do so. It's not as clearcut as you seem to think.

Kamos has it dead on.

Edit: also, there's no "prioritizing" SS over ArS; you flat-out drop ArS from your rotation unless you're moving.

[Kamos]

You're still trying to say there are both an Agi and an ArP MM spec: there are not. Once you get a certain amount of ArP/crit, you drop Arcane Shot and respec accordingly. You still gem Agi until you get an ArP trinket and the proc + gear + gems will get you 100% (or just until a spreadsheet says it's better).

You don't just choose to go ArP; you have to wait until you have the gear to do so. It's not as clearcut as you seem to think.

Kamos has it dead on.

Edit: also, there's no "prioritizing" SS over ArS; you flat-out drop ArS from your rotation unless you're moving.

Nailed it.

@ Iosif: Dropping arcane is dependant as much (maybe moreso than arp) on crit, because of piercing shots. The point SS outscales AS is quite early. It's certainly not based on 600 arp, thats for sure. At maybe, 300 arp, dropping arcane was a benefit to me.

[Siri]

Critcap is 100%, or well something like 103.8% or something due to bosses being 3 levels above us. So basically we don't have a critcap to worry about.

The crit reduction is 4.8% for a level 83 target, just throwing that out there!

[Xexphone]

so i should go MM now without regeming to ArP ?

[Wesdawg]

so i should go MM now without regeming to ArP ?

lol plai teh gaem for me plz!

[LiPi]

You're still trying to say there are both an Agi and an ArP MM spec: there are not. Once you get a certain amount of ArP/crit, you drop Arcane Shot and respec accordingly. You still gem Agi until you get an ArP trinket and the proc + gear + gems will get you 100% (or just until a spreadsheet says it's better).

You don't just choose to go ArP; you have to wait until you have the gear to do so. It's not as clearcut as you seem to think.

Kamos has it dead on.

Edit: also, there's no "prioritizing" SS over ArS; you flat-out drop ArS from your rotation unless you're moving.

I now have agi gems, and i do have NES - if i put in ArP gems i am only 20 Arp below cap when NES proc - however this will LOWER my dps by arround 30 from my AGI gemming. (also agi is better dps per budget in BOTH setups)
So i would just like to say that its not always "Teh ARP for life" . You can put my profile into spreadsheet and check it yourself.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ar&cn=Arachnee

For me it seems better to stay AGI eventhough i can get to the cap with proc trinket.

[Oddbjoern]

As someone states there is no such thing as a "agi" or a "ArP" MM hunter, with diffrent rotations.

Reason you switch out AS for SS depends on more then just ArP; AP, Weapondmg, ammo dmg and ofc crit.

Just balance the equations for each shot.
AS = 492 + 0.15 RAP, Critmodifier: 2.4
SS = ((Wdmg+Admg)*2.8 + 0.1 RAP +252) * (1-Armorreduction), Critmodifier: 3.12

In general SS scales better with a mix states and therefore becomes more powerfull at high itemlvl-gear.

[Calyxto]

As someone states there is no such thing as a "agi" or a "ArP" MM hunter, with diffrent rotations.

Perhaps it's the sticky at the top of this page giving them that impression...

[warptwist]

when you get rid of your T9 2p bonus, your survival specc will prberly most likely be best again.

and your crit cap is 104.8%. which means that when you reach something like 64-65% crit chance unbuffed your Killshot should have +100% crit chance. and your Explosive shot should get pretty close to the 100% aswell. so by then crit becomes a little (VERY little) less usefull, but nothing you should worry about, since nearly all other of your shots will not be able to hit the crit cap. so dont worry about your crit cap.

[Danthegreat1]

the counter to survival having high crit is marks becoming arpen hardcapped without a trinket. In which the DPS increase is something around 1k-2k over a similar geared / good survival hunter.

Survival has it a bit easier however, it's easier to move and shoot as survival.

I'm refusing to go marks until i can get 1350apen from gemming, if i was to regem today with foodbuffs i'd get 1270ish...

One day i'll be marks... one day...

[Kalti]

One day i'll be marks... one day...

I'm finding in ICC that SV is more effective on most fights because of all the movement / switching targets to adds, because of this I am finding that although femaledwarf.com puts my dps as ~400dps higher speced MM, I am beating myself as SV. Also of note is SV can be more useful in situations like Saurfang and Putricide (other also) where burst damage is crutial to kill Blood Beasts or Volatile Ooze/Gas Clouds respectively.

[Shirahadori]

I find it easier to move as MM during a fight, because you always have Arcane shot to use, while as Survival you HAVE to use Explosive/Aimed which should already be on CD anyway. The only real difference is that Auto Shot is more important in MM.

As for waiting for hard cap arp to go mm, that's silly. MM is awesome with or without soft/hard cap arp. The crit between the two specs isn't that different, just you receive slightly more agility through talents as sv.

someone really needs to fix the stupid crap about arcane shot being dropped based on arp, it's kind of annoying now. agility is great for both specs, and piercing shots is amazing. I also reserve my offspec for a half mm half sv awesome aoe heroic/trash spec because it's too much fun

[Kalti]

There is no real argument against SV being better at switching targets which require burst damage. The only burst damage MM can provide is when you have a Rapid fire / Readiness combo up once every 3min, and even then it will be about the same as SV with LnL up, but with Explosive Shot being only 6sec CD it is much more reliable to use as a burst damage ability. Especially with fights such as Saurfang where you will most likely be tasked with running in and dropping a frost trap for Blood Beasts, in which case you will have a garunteed LnL proc up to burst them down. This tactic can be used for Putricide also by dropping a trap and disengaging back to your ranged group to ensure a LnL proc for Volatile Ooze.

As MM you should be using Steady Shot over Arcane shot as much as possible because, as you mentioned, Piercing Shots is awesome and is not kept up by Arcane Shot, hence in moving fights you may let it drop off and that is not good. as I said, femaledwarf.com shows my dps as much higher in my MM spec, and it is correct for stand and deliver (VOA) type fights, however I felt it prudent to mention that I personally am finding SV much more useful for myself, and the raid, in ICC.

[ASO]

There is no real argument against SV being better at switching targets which require burst damage. The only burst damage MM can provide is when you have a Rapid fire / Readiness combo up once every 3min, and even then it will be about the same as SV with LnL up, but with Explosive Shot being only 6sec CD it is much more reliable to use as a burst damage ability. Especially with fights such as Saurfang where you will most likely be tasked with running in and dropping a frost trap for Blood Beasts, in which case you will have a garunteed LnL proc up to burst them down. This tactic can be used for Putricide also by dropping a trap and disengaging back to your ranged group to ensure a LnL proc for Volatile Ooze.

As MM you should be using Steady Shot over Arcane shot as much as possible because, as you mentioned, Piercing Shots is awesome and is not kept up by Arcane Shot, hence in moving fights you may let it drop off and that is not good. as I said, femaledwarf.com shows my dps as much higher in my MM spec, and it is correct for stand and deliver (VOA) type fights, however I felt it prudent to mention that I personally am finding SV much more useful for myself, and the raid, in ICC.

Piercing Shots dropping off doesn't matter, its current damage will always reflect the 8 seconds of every crit, added on top of each other.

Also, do you really get LnL procs off Putricide? What with the slimes being immune to slows, I would think the trap would just laugh and vanish.

[Vongimi]

Perhaps it's the sticky at the top of this page giving them that impression...

Yes, because sadly both our hunter mods dont know how to play a hunter to well. They both gem ArP for the soft cap with a arp proc trinket, which is not the way to go. If you dont know how to gem ArP, dont gem ArP, but anything past ulduar and you should be dropping arcane shot even with agi gemming.