Ret: Priority based on Damage per Cooldown?

[Nurvus]

So I read on EJ that Crusader Strike is superior to Divine Storm until we get 2p10 because DS effective cooldown goes from 10 to 6 sec.
In short, damage per cooldown is the key defining factor to the priority...
My thinking is: What?
Honestly, here, I can't, for the life of me, comprehend that claiming, but since they are arsed to do math I often am not, I feel inclined to believe them... I just... can't...

The way I see it, we are constantly putting our abilities on cooldown, as they become available.
What changes is when we have more than 1 ability available, we choose the best one, delaying the other by a GCD... a GCD!

Can someone explain to me where the actual cooldowns matter? It's not like we have a clean rotation like Prot or something...

I must be missing something, can someone enlighten me?

[Macanus]

DS does more damage than CS. its just on a longer CD. with 2p t10 that CD gets shorter, therefore going higher in priority.

[Nurvus]

Yeah, but what I mean is why would Crusader Strike ever have a higher priority to begin with unless, say, you want to quickly stack the new Libram to 5x or enemies have AoE resistance (Faction Champions)...?

EJ "justify" their priority by mentioning Crusader Strike has smaller cooldown.
I read that as a statement that what matters is Damage/Cooldown like 97% WpnDmg/4 sec comparing to 110% WpnDmg/10 sec (6 with 2p10).

And I disagree with them, because I think what matters is the damage per use (as instant casts), but then I wonder if I'm missing something...

[Guitarn]

It's not damage per cooldown, it's damage per second.

Otherwise, you cannot compare the two, as they have different cooldowns

Thus, CS has a higher priority before 2xt10 because it has a higher damage per second.

[Nurvus]

They are both instants... how can CS have a higher damage per second than Divine Storm?
It's not as simple as spamming 5x CS versus 2x DS over 20 seconds.
We are deciding between GCDs...

I think you are saying that Cooldowns are the same as Cast times.

Consider 2 spells with 2 second cast:
Spell A does 1000 damage with no cooldown
Spell B does 1200 damage with 10 sec cooldown
Would you use A,A,A,A,A,repeat or B,A,A,A,A,repeat?

Now instants - What changes is, instead of a cast time, we have GCD:
Spell A does 1000 damage with no cooldown
Spell B does 1200 damage with 10 sec cooldown
Why would A ever have priority over B?

[Mr_Bojangles]

Hellash, you missed it. Crusader strike, the ability that deals less damage per hit then divine storm, is higher on priority. That makes your example completely miss it. It has to do with % of time abilities are staying on cooldown. A 4 second CD that gets delayed 1 second by a GCD clash adds 25% more cooldown to it. A 10 second cooldown that gets delayed by a 1 second GCD clash has 10% more cooldown added to it. Getting delayed by 1 second becomes less and less significant the longer the base cooldown is.

[Prentice]

The 2T10 cooldown really does a number on the math that made CS a higher priority than DS. The logic that EJ used was the amount of damage over a period of time, not per individual attack.

Consider the course of a 1 minute fight. During that fight, if you optimize everything perfectly and don't clip any of the prioritized attacks without 2T10, you could achieve...

15 Crusader Strikes
7 Divine Storms
8 Judgements
6 Consecrations (assuming you have it glyphed)

They look at the amount of damage done in total, not per attack as I already said. I'll use my average hits from my last Festergut fight.

CS=2756
DS=3686
Consecration=8090
Judgement=5422

Then you have to look at how many of those numbers you can fit into that minute.

CS=2756 x 15= 41340
DS=3686 x 6= 22116
Cons=8090 x 6=48540
Judgement=5422 x 8= 43376

During 2T9, the attack priority was HoW, CS, Judgement, DS, Consecration, Exorcism. Despite that Consecrate damage is relatively high, it is considered a filler attack. Drop it once and it'll do its damage for 10 seconds. Also, Consecration losing a fair percentage of its value because it isn't a mobile attack. The other numbers should make sense when compared to the attack priority.

EDIT: Duh. I was comparing Consecration damage to the damage of the other attacks and forgot that I was only including the average "hit" damage. Setting the single attack values to include average hit and crit damage would push Consecration way down the list.

Looking at the numbers after gaining 2T10

CS=2756 x 15= 41340
DS=3686 x 10= 36860
Cons=8090 x 6=48540
Judgement=5422 x 7= 43376

Priority List:
Use the FCFS priority of Judgement>Crusader Strike>Divine Storm>Hammer of Wrath>Consecration>Exorcism> Holy Wrath.

I hope this kinda explains the math behind the attack priority.

Edit: fixed number of Judgement attacks.

[Guitarn]

They are both instants... how can CS have a higher damage per second than Divine Storm?
It's not as simple as spamming 5x CS versus 2x DS over 20 seconds.

They are both instants, and over a period of time, you can use them a certain number of times. This number of times divided by the period of time is the damage per second.

You cannot compare them "per cooldown", because the cooldowns are different lengths of time, and the abilities are balanced with that in mind. For example, CS used to be a 6 second cooldown with higher damage, but when it was lowered to 4 seconds (also, effectively 4.5 seconds) the damage was lowered, but the overall dps kept the same. This was spelled out by Blizzard in fact.

CS has the higher damage per time without the 2xt10. You cannot compare damage per cooldown, it's not apples to apples.

Edit: eliminated parts of the quote I didn't use and wanted to mention Prentice's illustration is a very good reference.

[luthe]

as has been explained above, the ret prio list is not based on DPCooldown or DPExecution, but DPMinute.

Yes, DS and CS are both instant, but CS has a 4 second cooldown to DS's 10 second. So assuming DS hits twice as hard, for simplicity lets say

CS: 1000
DS: 2000

In 20 seconds, you would have 5 CS, and 2 DS.

5x1000=5000
2x2000=4000

So the average damage per minute of crusader strike is higher, meaning it is higher on the priority list.

[meliancill]

as has been explained above, the ret prio list is not based on DPCooldown or DPExecution, but DPMinute.

Yes, DS and CS are both instant, but CS has a 4 second cooldown to DS's 10 second. So assuming DS hits twice as hard, for simplicity lets say

CS: 1000
DS: 2000

In 20 seconds, you would have 5 CS, and 2 DS.

5x1000=5000
2x2000=4000

So the average damage per minute of crusader strike is higher, meaning it is higher on the priority list.

for the argument im going to use your post luthe since im lazy.

now if you take and lower ds's cooldown to 6 seconds this is the result

cs 5x1000 = 5000
ds 3x2000 = 6000

the cooldown being lowerd by 4 seconds alows for 1 extra ds attack in 20 seconds. i hope this makes it clear. thanks luthe for making it more simple.

[Borigrad]

crusader strike is also on priority because CS and DS proc seal and seal stacks, So when it seems like DS does more damage the more crusader strikes you do, the more you procc your seals and it's stack which results in 4-6 attacks from CS compared to DS's 2-4 attacks.

[Prentice]

crusader strike is also on priority because CS and DS proc seal and seal stacks, So when it seems like DS does more damage the more crusader strikes you do, the more you procc your seals and it's stack which results in 4-6 attacks from CS compared to DS's 2-4 attacks.

This is entirely true. I hadn't thought about it because there are so many things to consider. Using my data above, if you added my average Seal of Corruption hit to each of those abilities, CS comes out WAY in front of DS simply by the sheer number of attacks that benefit from it.

1755 Holy damage (non-crit) added to each of those attacks makes the CS vs DS comparison look like this:

CS=( 2756 + 1755) x 15= 67665
DS=( 3686 + 1755) x 10= 54410

[Borigrad]

This is entirely true. I hadn't thought about it because there are so many things to consider. Using my data above, if you added my average Seal of Corruption hit to each of those abilities, CS comes out WAY in front of DS simply by the sheer number of attacks that benefit from it.

1755 Holy damage (non-crit) added to each of those attacks makes the CS vs DS comparison look like this:

CS=( 2756 + 1755) x 15= 67665
DS=( 3686 + 1755) x 10= 54410

always here to help, especially when your doing all the math and hardwork , Of course i lack a 2 piece T10 atm so without it Crusader strike still takes priority, of course i doubt it hurts to hit DS when ever it is up :P

[Prentice]

always here to help, especially when your doing all the math and hardwork , Of course i lack a 2 piece T10 atm so without it Crusader strike still takes priority, of course i doubt it hurts to hit DS when ever it is up :P

CS takes priority with 2T10 and 2T9. Nothing changed there.

[Prentice]

if ds is ready for use while you have 2t10, hit ds.
after that, hut cs, and, with a bit of luck, youll get another ds proc.
then goes judgement.
simple as that

Thank you for posting your utter nonsense and defeating the entire purpose of FCFS priorities.

[Nillo]

This awesome example will show you why CS is better than DS without 2p t10:

Ability A has 3 sec cd, ability B has 4.5 sec cd:

Now if you start with it will look like this

B A gcd B A gcd .... = 1 B and 1 A within 4.5 sec

If you start with A it will look like this:

A B A gcd A B A gcd = 2 A and 1B within 6 sec

=> (B + A) / 4.5 sec = (2*A + B) / 6 sec
<=> B * 6 + A * 6 = 9* A + 4.5* B
<=> B*1.5 = A*3
so B must be at least twice as strong as A to make it better to use first.

CS vs DS is similar to this, but with more abilities interfering and CDs being different :>

[Prentice]

you forget the fact that ds does not proc ds, we herd you like to ds, so we added ds to your cs so you could ds while you cs.

Oh really?? And what about the DS seal damage?? While DS may not proc DS, I believe the DS seal damage can. In a roundabout way, DS kinda can proc DS unless I am hallucinating.

[Prentice]

oh really?
imagine you have both cs and ds ready to use.
u will use cs and lose a ds proc?
its yours brand fcfs.

Yes, I would. CS has the higher priority based on damage over the fight. You are proposing a scenario much like that of initially entering combat. Run in, judge, and now its your call. CS and DS are up. You CS first because it is the priority. The only time you wouldn't CS first is if the boss is being moved into postion, is out of CS range, but can be hit by your DS.

[Deleted]

DS does more damage than CS. its just on a longer CD. with 2p t10 that CD gets shorter, therefore going higher in priority.

What this means is simply hit with DS as early as possible, so that your T10 can start working.

Yes, I would. CS has the higher priority based on damage over the fight. You are proposing a scenario much like that of initially entering combat. Run in, judge, and now its your call. CS and DS are up. You CS first because it is the priority. The only time you wouldn't CS first is if the boss is being moved into postion, is out of CS range, but can be hit by your DS.

/facepalm

Ever checked Recount? DS hits way harder than CS. 4x110% weapon dmg vs. 1x97%. It should be clear that T10 automatically places DS higher than CS, even on single targets. You might get four procs from T10 in a row.

[DaGhostDS]

Oh really?? And what about the DS seal damage?? While DS may not proc DS, I believe the DS seal damage can. In a roundabout way, DS kinda can proc DS unless I am hallucinating.

yes ds seal damage can proc another ds
or
im hallucinating too :P

/QQ On NOO MY BRYNTROLL! /QQ off