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  1. #41

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc
    No, it is you who appears to misunderstand. He was shown when and how he would die. This very well could be tomorrow after he gets an infection from a splinter or two days from now from a carbon monoxide leak in his house. This does not mean that he CANNOT BE KILLED, only that he knows the time, place, and events surrounding his death. The Titans gave him a humility check, not invulnerability until the appointed time. And if that time is tomorrow when a group of 10 adventurers knock on his door for loot, then that is when it will be. And if he is to die fighting Deathwing in a hypothetical cage match, then that is when he will die.
    From wowwiki (sourced from the books):
    Nozdormu has both a power and a curse: he knows when and how he will die. Until that time comes, he cannot perish.

    Meaning he can't die until his "determined" time of death. We don't know when this is. It could be tomorrow - most likely not, however. Either way, up until the time of his known death he is completely and utterly indestructible.

    So if Neltharion has the Demon Soul, he wins (because it contains part of Nozdormu and can control him). If the Dragon Soul is out, Nozdormu wins because he simply is unable to die.

  2. #42

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Nozdormu was blessed by Aman'thul the leader of the titans, Im pretty sure someone who controls time is stronger then someone that controls earth

  3. #43

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Hmm, if deathwing has the demon soul could he negate Nozdormu's powers?

  4. #44

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    My list, from strongest to weakest:

    -Deathwing
    -Alexstrasza
    -Nozdormu
    -Ysera
    -Malygos

    Reasoning:
    Deathwing: This one is obvious. He tricked the other aspects into putting some of their powers in the Demon Soul, which not only weakened them, but made Deathwing much more powerful as well. Couple that with his probable empowering by the Old Gods, and you have yourself a hell of a dragon.

    Alexstrasza: The reason I see Alexstrasza as being second to Deathwing (and only after the Demon Soul incident) is because the Titans gave her rule over all the other dragons, not only her flight. She has control over all life, which I believe is more powerful than dominion over time. Plus, c'mon, 139M HP? Seriously.

    Nozdormu: Control over time can be considered one of the greatest powers you can have, but it doesn't seem like it's all that it's cracked up to be. Nozdormu doesn't see all. Remember the Demon Soul? The only one that spoke against it was Malygos. Nozdormu is going to die someday, he was even shown the exact time and place. Plus, timelines can be changed. If they couldn't, the Infinite Dragonflight wouldn't even exist. The fact that Nozdormu might be their leader is even greater evidence of this. He wouldn't take control of another Dragonflight and send them on a mission that couldn't be accomplished. (Well, maybe he could, but I'm going to assume he's not that kind of guy.)

    Ysera: Ysera rarely leaves the Dream. She is likely to not be very powerful. However, being able to physically shift from reality to the Dream would probably be very useful in combat.

    Malygos: Simple explanation: He is killable by mortals. I do believe that he would have been one of the top three, at the very least, had he not gone insane when Deathwing nearly wiped out his flight. When we kill him, it was only a few months after he snapped out of it due to the nether dragons, when he was likely at his weakest.

  5. #45

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc
    So what? He has a set time of death? When is that? Whenever he dies or is killed. This is no different than anyone else.
    He has a set time of death that is unknown to us or anyone beyond the titans and himself. He was only shown to understand the extent of his power. There for, unless the being fortold to him comes into play, he IS invulnerable. He sees what everyone intends to do. You lay a thousand traps across every path you think he'll take and he sees you planning it before you are the semen swimming for the egg in your mom. Nozdormu could, at anytime, jump back to when the demon soul was being created, breath his time leeching sand breath on eevrything and ruin deathwing before he even got everyone to give their portions to the demon soul. THAT is how powerful Nozdormu is.

    he's only held back because of the site of his own death. the other aspects aren't so 'fortunate' to know their expiration date or be gifted with such cognition.
    Signature not acceptable (e.g. too large), read http://www.mmo-champion.com/general-discussions-22/important-signatures/ - Regards, Olison

  6. #46

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snes
    "The Master" - Leader of the Infinite Dragonflight
    Nothing is know about him yet, so we can't really come to a conclusion until we know more about him.
    you mean nozdormu?
    Signature not acceptable (e.g. too large), read http://www.mmo-champion.com/general-discussions-22/important-signatures/ - Regards, Olison

  7. #47

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    -Nozdormu (If he engaged in battle, which he won't considering it would alter time and hes a very reserved but extremely powerful aspect)
    -Deathwing
    -Alexstrasza
    -Malygos
    -Ysera
    If at first you don't Succeed....then you fail.

  8. #48

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Nozdormu (spelling?) is by far the strongest, so far in fact that he doesn't even see the others as a threat. When Deathwing is in Grim Batol and Krasus asks Nozdormu to help him stop the evil behemoth, Nozdormu simply replies "He will become part of my collection" afterwards erasing Krasus' memory. Nozdormu can travel through time, warp age and has substantial power. It is incredibly frightening that he may be one of our enemies considering that in a heartbeat he could probably travel back in time and kill any major threat to him while they were young.

  9. #49

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    I stated earlier that they are fighting in their prime with no restrictions. So yes, Noz would fight. My only question is if Deathwing has the demon soul could he cancel out Nozdormu?

  10. #50

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raidenx
    I stated earlier that they are fighting in their prime with no restrictions. So yes, Noz would fight. My only question is if Deathwing has the demon soul could he cancel out Nozdormu?
    Short answer: yes

    Long answer: maybe not. Since the Dragon Soul contains part of Nozdormu, he can't destroy it... but could he go back in time and prevent it from being formed? If Neltharion used it to mind control Nozdormu, could he stop all of the timeline versions of him from destroying it? We will probably never know...

  11. #51

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedes
    Short answer: yes

    Long answer: maybe not. Since the Dragon Soul contains part of Nozdormu, he can't destroy it... but could he go back in time and prevent it from being formed? If Neltharion used it to mind control Nozdormu, could he stop all of the timeline versions of him from destroying it? We will probably never know...
    my head hurts....trying to solve a time paradox is hard....

  12. #52

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Nozdormu is absolutely powerless.

    He has some kind of a classic Kassandra-Dilemma. He knows what will happen, but he can not change it. As far as i know, with him being outside of time, the timeline is basically static to him. Which means that he can not, and does not want to change it. As a guardian of time, his sole reason of existence is to keep the time stable.

    Knowing the exact time and reason of his death does not make him invulnerable, or counts as a useful power. Basically, it does not help him at all. He can not die up to that point. But since he is the only one who knows when that will be, AND he does not have the power or will to change it, it is basically meaningless. This knowledge does not help at all, especially since noone else knows when it will happen. He will not tell you for sure. And since it could be in 3 minutes from the blade of your sword, and he would not be able to change it.

    This knowledge does not change anything, at all. And it does not make him invulerable, as i stated before. He can be hurt, and killed. He simply knows when that will happen. This makes it possible to be relaxed to any threat when he knows that he will not be hurt. But knowing all of time can probably do that to you.

    But he can not change anything. He does not interfere in the past. Or change anything else. It is simply not his job. His job is to fight people who try to change time.

    This guy lives in a very simple world. He knows what will happen when. And what he will do at any given point in time. All the decisions are already done. He is probably just watching. The best picture that i, as someone without any such knowledge, can make of that, is watching a movie that you know very good for the 10th time. You know what will happen. You know who will make what mistakes. But you simply can not change it. It happened, and it will happen again.

    In my opinion, this limitation makes him actually the weakest anything. Even the most powerless peasant has some sort of choices. At least without all of this turning a bit to metaphysical. He can choose to grow corn, or flax, next year. He can choose whether or not to go to the pub. Nozdormu can do no such thing. He will do what he knows he will do. He will even die the day he knows he will die. There is no power in such absolute knowledge.


    The practical aspect of this is that it basically kills of any possible paradoxa. Nozdormu will not try to alter the past. It is simply something that will not happen. The creation of the demon soul is something that is a necessary part of the past to lead to the present, so he will not change it. He has no power, at all.

  13. #53
    Mechagnome Hexus's Avatar
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    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raidenx
    I stated earlier that they are fighting in their prime with no restrictions. So yes, Noz would fight. My only question is if Deathwing has the demon soul could he cancel out Nozdormu?
    Long and short of it is that (if you take Day of the Dragon as canon) Deathwing DID have the dragon soul for a while, and he DID kick the crap out of Nozdormu.

    Furthermore, I don't necessarily buy this talk that Nozdormu would somehow altar time to make sure he would win. From what we know about the aspect, he does not tamper with time in this manner. He may be able to foresee his death, but he would do nothing to stop it. With the presence of the infinite dragonflight and the possibility that Nozdormu is their master, that may not hold true. However, that is really just speculation. My take is that if he has become the master of the Infinite, he has become another entity entirely, much like Deathwing is no longer Neltharion, if that makes sense.
    Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them so much. ~attributed to Oscar Wilde

  14. #54

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexus
    Long and short of it is that (if you take Day of the Dragon as canon) Deathwing DID have the dragon soul for a while, and he DID kick the crap out of Nozdormu.

    Furthermore, I don't necessarily buy this talk that Nozdormu would somehow altar time to make sure he would win. From what we know about the aspect, he does not tamper with time in this manner. He may be able to foresee his death, but he would do nothing to stop it. With the presence of the infinite dragonflight and the possibility that Nozdormu is their master, that may not hold true. However, that is really just speculation. My take is that if he has become the master of the Infinite, he has become another entity entirely, much like Deathwing is no longer Neltharion, if that makes sense.
    I agree with this. I hope we see this Infinite persona of Nozdormu in Cataclysm.
    "Do not run! We are your friends!"

  15. #55

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    "He moves with a speed and grace belied by his monstrous form. Curiously, his position seems to change from moment to moment, as though its location in space were constantly in flux.....Nozdormu is difficult to defeat because of his ability to look into the corridors of time and repeat events if they do not progress as he feels they should. He is extremely wise and uses his insight to determine the best course of action before proceeding. Should this fail, he simply tries again as necessary, or uses his power to avoid the encounter entirely. Nozdormu can take any form he desires, as though constantly under the effects of a shapechange spell. He frequently takes on the role of a humanoid creature and travels incognito as a simple commoner or peon. When doing this, the only consistent trait he displays is the absence of any need to hurry."-Wowwiki

    So yeah he can "reset" a fight if it doesn't end favorably for him, and I don't think it's Deathwing that kills him as Deathwing supposedly dies before Nozdormu does.

  16. #56

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Each of them has their own aspect of power in which they are the greatest (bar the titans that gave them that power).

    Comparing them is like comparing Apples and Spaghetti.

    However I would like to think it would be something like this:
    Pre-Demon/Dragon Soul

    Alex
    Noz
    Maly
    Neth
    Yser

    Post-Demon/Dragon Soul & Pre-4.1

    Alex
    Deathwing
    Noz
    Maly
    Ysera

    In-Cataclysm

    Deathwing
    Alex
    Noz
    Ysera
    Maly

    Post-Cataclysm

    Noz "The Master" of the Infinite
    Ysera the Corrupt
    Alex
    Deadchin
    Maly

    ------------------------
    On a side note, there is an section on Alexstrasza's wowwiki page...

    Thrall's encounter with Alexstrasza
    Thrall may have once encountered Alexstrasza in a place called "Alexstrasza's Cave", but the story of that event has never been told. Alexstrasza is easily the most powerful individual on Azeroth. She's a huge red dragon who could just as easily crush an army as cunningly manipulate its leaders to her own ends. She has a brilliant intellect and delights in toying with the lesser creatures who cross her path. The encounter with Alexstrasza would have been related in the cancelled Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. There is no mention of any draconic encounters in other narrations of Thrall's life, so it looks like this never happened. In addition, such a manipulative, sadistic personality is not consistent with her benevolent nature as depicted in World of Warcraft.
    (Important Part)
    Alexstrasza is easily the most powerful individual on Azeroth. She's a huge red dragon who could just as easily crush an army as cunningly manipulate its leaders to her own ends. She has a brilliant intellect and delights in toying with the lesser creatures who cross her path.
    Despite it being apart of a canceled game and lolore'd out of having ever actually happened, we full well know that Alexstrasza's personality is nothing like that. But does that also mean that the statement about her power level cannot be held for arguments sake?
    Considering this would be talking about Post-Demon/Dragon Soul and Pre-Cataclysm, So Deathwing may have surpassed her since then.

  17. #57

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qprahwndfury
    But does that also mean that the statement about her power level cannot be held for arguments sake?
    Considering this would be talking about Post-Demon/Dragon Soul and Pre-Cataclysm, So Deathwing may have surpassed her since then.
    Is it safe to assume that it's over 9,000?
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  18. #58

    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ctw
    Nozdormu (spelling?) is by far the strongest, so far in fact that he doesn't even see the others as a threat. When Deathwing is in Grim Batol and Krasus asks Nozdormu to help him stop the evil behemoth, Nozdormu simply replies "He will become part of my collection" afterwards erasing Krasus' memory. Nozdormu can travel through time, warp age and has substantial power. It is incredibly frightening that he may be one of our enemies considering that in a heartbeat he could probably travel back in time and kill any major threat to him while they were young.
    What you all don't seem to understand about Nozdormu knowing how, when and why he will die - is that it doesn't make him invincible.

    His knowledge of his demise simply means he knows how and when he will die. Nozdormu himself is a rather passive aspect and it's not because he can play time thousands of time around (which he would never do since it has dire consequences on the future in general) - that he "might" be the "strongest of the aspects".

    Let's retake the example of a video game: You can try as a hard as you want and as many times as you want; if it's impossible it simply is. What if Deathwing was so powerful that Nozdormu could NEVER defeat him no matter what he did or tried?

    Neltharion the Earth Warder was an aspect - Deathwing is not. The strongest aspect is by lore, Nozdormu (he was empowered by Aman'thul the head of the Pantheon) but in earlier designs of Warcraft :"Alexstrasza is easily the most powerful individual on Azeroth. She's a huge red dragon who could just as easily crush an army as cunningly manipulate its leaders to her own ends. She has a brilliant intellect and delights in toying with the lesser creatures who cross her path", so it could be Alexstrasza, yet it defines Deathwing perfectly.
    Deathwing as I just said is no longer an aspect and the "armour" is ADAMANTIUM (the hardest metal existing in Azeroth) and there is only one known adamantium item in the game http://www.wowhead.com/?item=15413 (Arguably the best pre-MC/BWL tanking chest back in Vanilla) yet it didn't stop him from being defeated by the Alliance expedition (led by Khadgar & Turalyon) on Draenor and even before that by a council of Dalaran's Archmagi in Azeroth.

    So a list should by logic look like this:

    -Alexstrazsa/Nozdormu
    -Ysera

    Malygos is dead & Deathwing is out of this league - he is no longer a dragon Aspect but he still is the leader of the Black Dragonflight so he would indeed arguably be number one by far on a scale of power - to an extent that there no longer is any comparison possible; you don't compare a rabbit and a lion when it comes to power.

    DEATHWING. End of story.
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  19. #59
    Brewmaster ketzil's Avatar
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    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    hmmm everyone seems to think nozdormu is so tough....the fact that he knows when he dies doesnt make him invincible, he could die from falling down a flight of stairs for all we know.

    MY order (this would be in effect at the start of WotLK):

    1.Deathwing
    2.Malygos
    3.Alexstraza (if she was tougher than maly then wouldnt she just go in and take care of him herself?)
    4.Nozdormu
    5.Ysera
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  20. #60
    Brewmaster ketzil's Avatar
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    Re: Which Dragonflight leader is the strongest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedes
    Short answer: yes

    Long answer: maybe not. Since the Dragon Soul contains part of Nozdormu, he can't destroy it... but could he go back in time and prevent it from being formed? If Neltharion used it to mind control Nozdormu, could he stop all of the timeline versions of him from destroying it? We will probably never know...
    I think what we are going to see, is that Nozdormu originally broke his #1 law of not upsetting the flow of time. He, being the master of time, tried to change some thing that happened in the past, which is, in WoW lore at least impossible(pure speculation there). Attempting this corrupted him and some of the other members of the bronze into the infinite
    If actions speak louder than words
    I'll be the most deafening noise you've heard.
    I'll be that ringing in your ears
    That will stick around for years.

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