Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I've seen bits and pieces where people are saying that after a point (with ridiculous casting speed), a full mindflay does more DPS than a mindblast, and at that point, its safe to remove from your rotation (provided something else is giving replenishment) ?

    Am I wildly misunderstanding this threshhold, or is this actually the case? Currently, with my haste (1k) and t10 4p, I do a full mindflay in about ~1.7sec, and likely even faster with raid buffs + Heroism/Bloodlust.

    Apologies in advance if this has been explained somewhere and I just missed it, and could be pointed in that direction?

  2. #2

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    i think you will have better luck finding what you need on shadowpriest.com

    i read some topic on it befor 3.3 came out.. if i rember its worth droping when you have 4p T10 and bloodlust but cant rember how much haste you needed to drop it totaly.. think it was Quite a bit.

  3. #3

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    It has been explained, but the explanation is in old threads/in older posts in stickies, but here is the quick and easy version:
    Quote Originally Posted by Weena2
    x=((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay))

    Use that forumla it will tell you at what spellpower not casting MF will give you more dps than casting MB.

    Personally with my 400 MS i can be half naked and it will still be MF>MB
    MFcast is the cast time of MF, MBcast is the cast time of MB and delay is your latency.

    Just remember, this is the point in which MF = MB in dps, so you would want a considerable more SP than x to actually drop MB.


    BiS roughly has 45% haste and 4000 sp raid buffed, depending on what set you use. It also has 4pc t10, so base cast time of MF is 2.5s
    MB: 1.03s
    MF: 1.72s
    Latency + brain lag: I'd say 350ms should be a good benchmark

    Applying:
    x=((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay))
    x=((1020*(1.72s+.35s))-(679.14*(1.03s+.35s))/((1.0240807*(1.03s+.35s))-(0.492775*(1.72s+.35s))
    x=(2111.4 - 937.2132)/(1.4132 - 1.02)
    x=2986.233

    Now, the difference in SP is ~1k, so it looks clear that MB should be dropped, but how much of a DPS increase is it? Using simcraft/rawr would tell you. Using rawr and the BiS gear I've loaded, the dps increase was 350dps on a patchwerk fight.

  4. #4
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    When you have 4xT10 equipped, and you got a minimum of 700 haste.

    And then you can skip having a math degree to prove the obvious.

  5. #5

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    pretty simple , when you have gear from ICC and have 4pc T10 , during heroism you can get away without casting mind blast and get a dps increase , thats pretty much it.
    HTML Code:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/Johnish/simple

  6. #6

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I at first thought that dropping mind blast would benifit me, due to my 'good' gear and my high latency (350-400). After testing this in both a raid and dummy (for a long time), i couldn't see any dps gain from dropping mind blast, i just use it differently. Basically what i was doing is using it as a filler, meaning if either VT or DP was dropping off in less than about 1.2seconds i would mind blast, rather than mind flay. Admitingly this would mean i use MB alot less than i use to and no longer use it when i know it will conflict with my dots, but i still think it has a place in our 'rotation'

  7. #7
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    With 350-400ms latency, I'd dare say you can't really use the information for anything.

    I play at 23ms, and it's a completely different world for a caster.

  8. #8

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    at some point the cast time of mb gets pushed under the global cooldown, where mf still is above it. somewhere in that point you get too much "inactive" time when mb'ing, so the mf pulls ahead, because you're never idling
    Player: Vanish___________Server: No!
    Player: Preparation_______Server: Okay...
    Player: Vanish___________Server: I SAID NO DAMMIT!

  9. #9

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by K4ge
    at some point the cast time of mb gets pushed under the global cooldown, where mf still is above it. somewhere in that point you get too much "inactive" time when mb'ing, so the mf pulls ahead, because you're never idling
    pushing mb under the gcd as a shadowpriest without bloodlust is nearly impossible.

    it takes the class with 15% passive haste (holy paladin) nearly 700 haste to push their gcd to 1sec, spriests have 0 passive haste, so we would need upward of 1300 haste to do it.

    In my roughly 680 haste raid buffed my MB sits around 1.2... what actually puts mb below MF is a certain point of spellpower and haste, as well as 4t10. when you're channeling mind flay so fast that it becomes more dps then mind blast, that's when it overtakes it (hurr durr?) unless your raid is in dire need of replenishment at that point, mind blast is out.


    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dethecus&n=Solandrys

  10. #10

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by luthe
    pushing mb under the gcd as a shadowpriest without bloodlust is nearly impossible.

    it takes the class with 15% passive haste (holy paladin) nearly 700 haste to push their gcd to 1sec, spriests have 0 passive haste, so we would need upward of 1300 haste to do it.

    In my roughly 680 haste raid buffed my MB sits around 1.2... what actually puts mb below MF is a certain point of spellpower and haste, as well as 4t10. when you're channeling mind flay so fast that it becomes more dps then mind blast, that's when it overtakes it (hurr durr?) unless your raid is in dire need of replenishment at that point, mind blast is out.
    I have 1189 haste right now with no buffs. with raid buffs I push my mind blast under the GC no problem. I am using Dying Light now so no more black magic but i have hyperspeed excel still so i can go well under 1 second cast on mind blast. hell with heroism popped and hyperspeed up with a speed pot my mind flay casts in 1.5 seconds. once i get 4 piece my mind flay is going to be pushing the GCD with cooldowns popped at least.
    HTML Code:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/Johnish/simple

  11. #11

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    ^how do you have so much haste? I am in near full BiS (non-icc hardmodes) and am at 803 haste unbuffed. Can you link your character so i can see whats going on.

  12. #12

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weena2
    ^how do you have so much haste? I am in near full BiS (non-icc hardmodes) and am at 803 haste unbuffed. Can you link your character so i can see whats going on.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...gath&cn=Jonish
    HTML Code:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/Johnish/simple

  13. #13

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    About same amounts of haste thats in my gear, just gemming it instead of spellpower. Nothing special, but good point of view
    "any type of person converting RL money into WoW is retarded by default." - Choppers
    "That makes all of WoW players retards, since we all pay our monthly fee." - Kenjji

  14. #14

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    looked at your armory link in your sig weena but your logged out as disc in pvp gear.

    Id bet huge chunks are from the trinket i have DFO along with gemming. I dont gem as most Spriests do. I gem much heavier for haste with reckless ametrines instead of trying to max my PP value with spell power gems in blue sockets. I find the higher haste value gives me alot more of a dps increase than the actually PP value of spell power gems do based on how encounters are designed. faster dot ticks means your squeezing in more dot ticks rather than getting less that are bigger. If i can get enough haste to squeeze another dot tick on an add before it dies then i am getting much more damage output than if i missed a tick but the other two hit a little harder.

    It is just a theory and a preference of mine. I havent seen anyone else really doing it so dont quote me but I do like it alot. It suffers a small amount in single target fights but we are already behind there anyway.
    HTML Code:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/Johnish/simple

  15. #15
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Trinket + Staff = lot of haste.

  16. #16

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I should be in pve shadow gear now, i saw your set and i also saw your trinket which made more sense to me why you have so much haste, also the gemming is obviously your choice but i can see how you have that much haste now.

  17. #17

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    pushing mb under the gcd as a shadowpriest without bloodlust is nearly impossible.
    After upgrading my wand last night I was sitting at 1.04s cast MB (raid buffed, no BL/hero) and I would hardly say I'm full of ICC gear already. And I'm not even purposely gemming pure haste either.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Got 4p last night, and I can confirm that I can gain ~200 more dps'ish on a heroic target dummy, by not using Mind Blast.

    It's sweet, now with Silence and Imp. VE in same build <3

  19. #19

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Got 4p last night, and I can confirm that I can gain ~200 more dps'ish on a heroic target dummy, by not using Mind Blast.

    It's sweet, now with Silence and Imp. VE in same build <3
    After doing a lot of research and testing i've come to the conclusion that latency/lag/reaction time attributed to MB can be pretty much nullified but the latency/lag/reaction time of MF cannot...

    This is due to the fact that while you cast MB you can spam the button for your next cast and effectively spell queue that cast to happen immediately... the only lag effect attributed to MB is the reaction time between you pressing the button before the spell queue is ready and pressing the button when it is ready. That reaction time is going to be in the 50ms range.

    Because MF is channeled you cannot spam your next spell button because doing so will clip or interrupt the MF channel. Thus you need to wait until you reach the red latency portion of your cast bar which is now innaccurate (the latency shown was your latency at the start of the cast and it can change by the time it reaches the end of your cast). In addition, there will be a portion of reaction time lag in addition to latency for the client to contact the server... so assuming you don't accidently clip which will be a danger with latency changes you are likely to cop 50 to 100ms reaction lag + your latency on top of that.

    The other option is to use a nochanneling macro, however the way that works is that the server will not begin to spell queue the next spell until your current channel has completed fully. That means you can't use your latency as a way to spell queue the next spell immediately, which means you'll cop the 50ms reaction time + full latency on top of that. Unlike a nuke, a nochanneling macro doesn't have the facility to tell the client to begin casting the next spell while at the very end of the channel.

    What this all means is that your lag attributed to MF is greater than that of MB. In my case MB is in the region of 50ms to 100ms while MF is in the region of 350ms to 450ms. This makes MB far superior in terms of effective DPEt... i'd need somethign like 10K SP accounting for that type of lag.

    Even if I had 100ms attributed to both spells i'd require 4227 SP... strangely enough when I calculate it for 50ms I get 4590 sp... I think the reason for that is the reduction of 0.05 sec on MB is a greater % of cast time in comparison to MF... either that or I have an error with my formula but I can't seem to see an error, so perhaps someone can run the calcs themselves and confirm or deny.

    In any case it would appear dropping MB may be the incorrect thing to do... so far with some tweaks to my UI and a bit more empahsis on attempting to spell queue, i'm certainly doing the same DPS at the very worst but it does seem its slightly more.

  20. #20

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Just further to the info above...

    I've done quite a number of dummy parses using MB and not using MB and doing some comparison analysis....

    The DPS figures jump around a lot due to RNG on trinket procs, crit etc... so the DPS figure is unreliable... however the makeup of casts is what ulitmately decides your long term DPS. 2 parses of nearly identical length jumped out... basically using both dps methods I had the exact same number of DoT ticks, but I traded 23 MF ticks for 16 MB hits between the 2. That's pretty self explanatory that the MB rotation is more damage, MB does about double the damage of 1 MF tick....

    Using pure MF spam I get roughly 1 MF tick every 0.93 seconds... using MB I get 1 MF tick every 1.09 seconds... in doing so I gain 1 MB cast every 8.7 seconds... the reason its so high so I'm not clipping MF for MB...

    So every minute, i'm losing out on 9.6 or 10 (rounded up) MF ticks... but in doing so I gain 6.9 or 7 (rounded up) MBs per min... that seems like a good trade to me and from my pov that is a pretty black and white dps gain.

    Lastly... during BL/Heroism... berserking... any sort of high haste temp buff it's probably wise to drop MB... basically anything that lowers MB under the GCD cap. Other than that I think it's perhaps a good idea to add MB into your spell rotation.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •