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  1. #21

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I dont claim to know the maths and it's a very small part of the arguement, but it's worth considering that casting MB in your rotation will be another source of replenishment in your raid. And while ret paladins can probably cover it (None of our locks, hunters or mages raid replenishment specs at the moment) it's still worth considering that VT -> MB will be another source of it.

  2. #22

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    MF is better than MB when you get higher dps from dropping it than from keeping it rotation. The extensive amounts of formulae and simcrafting can't tell you what is going to be a bigger increase in dps for YOU. When i got 4 pc t10 and a few upgrades from ICC 25 MF spamming and dropping MB was a dps increase for me and much simpler as well.

    Mathimatically it takes lots to get MB to be greater than MF non-hero/procs. In real life it's much simpler, drop it, try it, see what works. If you see no difference in dps (noticeable) then do what is easier. Most people in game situations have found that just dropping it better, some people are holding on to MB for dear life and just don't want to let go. I found on a test dummy MB is still more powerful than MF due to the lack of buffs but once in raid it is clear to me MF is the winner.

    Nobody thus far from the numerous posts i have seen on this topic has posted with any certainty how much dps increase it is to keep MB in rotation(for those advocating keeping it), even if you could do this perfect execution and never have to worry about Boss mechanics. Even if the math says MB is better it can't be a considerable increase over MF because if it was nobody would be even having this argument.

    On Fights with adds i'm more concerned with multidoting to care, on single target fights i still use my opening rotation with mb out of pure habit. The loss of 2pc t9 made dropping mb an easier choice, losing 6 secs on vt increased the number of dot collisions and casting MB on every cd even more of a headache, so much so that it was a decrease in dps.

    I think i said the same thing numerous ways in this post but i thought id share my experience concerning the MB<MF issue.

  3. #23
    Immortal seam's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Simulations on Shadowpriest.com say with BiS and a low or high latency (Not sure what it means by 'fixed' on the third one, but meh) it's about a 100 dps loss. With a 'fixed latency' it's about a 20 dps gain.

    http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26240

    Now, I've read about a lot of people having a dps gain from it(And a fairly large one at that), and it's likely either due to it being easier to play, or a placebo.

    As the above said, try it. If it's a gain for you, use it.

  4. #24

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by seam
    Simulations on Shadowpriest.com say with BiS and a low or high latency (Not sure what it means by 'fixed' on the third one, but meh) it's about a 100 dps loss. With a 'fixed latency' it's about a 20 dps gain.

    http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26240

    Now, I've read about a lot of people having a dps gain from it(And a fairly large one at that), and it's likely either due to it being easier to play, or a placebo.

    As the above said, try it. If it's a gain for you, use it.
    Actually, they only tried normal BiS, not heroic BiS. They are waiting for Heroic Royal Scepter of Terenas II to drop so that the MP5 can be replaced with Haste(at least on wowhead).

    Although there is a very slight dps loss on those that was simulated, 91 dps can be made up by RNG.

  5. #25

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    SORRY GAIZ, IM GOING TO BE SELFISH AND NOT CONTRIBUTE MY REPLENISHMENT.

  6. #26

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalize
    SORRY GAIZ, IM GOING TO BE SELFISH AND NOT CONTRIBUTE MY REPLENISHMENT.
    Read the entire thread and you'll learn that(hell even the OP said it) that all of us were talking about a situation in which your raid does not need replenishment. Thus we can actually be more concerned about personal dps.

  7. #27

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    Read the entire thread and you'll learn that(hell even the OP said it) that all of us were talking about a situation in which your raid does not need replenishment. Thus we can actually be more concerned about personal dps.
    What situation as that in a 25 man?
    Hunters have gone MM.
    Warlocks dont spec it anymore.
    One replenishment from a ret pally isnt enough.

  8. #28

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalize
    What situation as that in a 25 man?
    Hunters have gone MM.
    Warlocks dont spec it anymore.
    One replenishment from a ret pally isnt enough.
    Ok, troll, please go away. If you can not comprehend some basic sentences, then please do not post at all.

  9. #29

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalize
    What situation as that in a 25 man?
    Hunters have gone MM.
    Warlocks dont spec it anymore.
    One replenishment from a ret pally isnt enough.
    because we all play whatever is the strongest in every single patch, never used affliction when destro was SB-spam + life tap and we all only have one retlol? and no raid ever has two shadowpriests, one with and one without 4p t10?
    since it was mentioned from the beginning maybe there are some people that actually can skip mb for replenishmnets sake (until another person who gives repl dies and you adapt to the situation)

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord AetherMcLoud's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by tatienne
    (until another person who gives repl dies and you adapt to the situation)
    Whoa, that's like thinking while doing a bossfight, unheard of!
    I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite signature on the forum.

  11. #31

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I must agree with the guy that cant put a sentence together. It's important to make sure you have enough replenishment to go around, i.e. at least two people providing it. If for some odd reason you raid with two ret pallies or even another shadowpriest then feel free to work out with them if you can drop MB. If you only raid with one other replenishment class well you'll be stuck doing it.

    Its honestly not hard to fit in a MB, use it as a filler rather than trying to squeeze your other spells around in. For example if VT is falling off in 2 seconds, and assuming your MF is a 2second cast and your MB is a 1second cast, you can use MB then a VT straight after, with lag this should allow you to cast a MB and then a VT onto the boss with VT only falling off for an extremely brief period. This would be better than your two second mindflay, or even your two clip minflay which would prolong the time VT isn't on the boss.

  12. #32
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    There's been quite a bit of discussing and speculating about when or even if to drop mind blast. Griemak made a little tool from a spreedsheat, in which you can see when dropping mind blast COULD be a dps increase. You can read all about it here: http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t84746-s...my_friends/p7/


    Here's the link to the tool: http://elitistjerks.com/attachments/...s/mbremove.xls

  13. #33

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weena2
    I must agree with the guy that cant put a sentence together. It's important to make sure you have enough replenishment to go around, i.e. at least two people providing it. If for some odd reason you raid with two ret pallies or even another shadowpriest then feel free to work out with them if you can drop MB. If you only raid with one other replenishment class well you'll be stuck doing it.

    Its honestly not hard to fit in a MB, use it as a filler rather than trying to squeeze your other spells around in. For example if VT is falling off in 2 seconds, and assuming your MF is a 2second cast and your MB is a 1second cast, you can use MB then a VT straight after, with lag this should allow you to cast a MB and then a VT onto the boss with VT only falling off for an extremely brief period. This would be better than your two second mindflay, or even your two clip minflay which would prolong the time VT isn't on the boss.
    not that it's hard to fit it in, it's that it's a dps loss at that point to use it

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans ElAmigo's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    With 350-400ms latency, I'd dare say you can't really use the information for anything.

    I play at 23ms, and it's a completely different world for a caster.
    show me the way of 23ms plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    "Didn't we have some fun...though? Remember when the platform was sliding into the fire pit and I said 'Goodbye' and you were like 'No way' and then I was all 'We pretended we were going to murder you'......that was great"

  15. #35

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob7
    not that it's hard to fit it in, it's that it's a dps loss at that point to use it
    You must of misread what i wrote, i am simply saying that if you can drop MB due to MF being a larger dps increase, but you still have to MB to keep up replenishment its important to know that you can fit it round your rotation rather than using it every 15seconds.

  16. #36

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I think you all missed what I was attempting to communicate... I won't go into detail but here is the synopsis...

    1. MB is a nuke opposed to MF which is a channeled spell
    2. Nukes incur less latency & reaction lag because they give the opportunity for you to spell queue the next spell
    3. Channeled spells have more latency because you cannot spell queue and nochanneling macros don't allow it either
    4. You can reliable limit MB's latency/reaction lag to about 50ms, MF's latency/reaction lag will be 50-100ms + the full amount of your latency you experience in game
    5. When you run the clacs based on those latency measures, you will find that MF isn't greater than MB, with my 1077 haste and my 300 aussie ping requires me to have about 10K spellpower. And that figure is assuming 3% & 5% raid buffs.
    6. Even at very low latency, it appears you'd require about 4 to 4.5K SP before MF > MB
    7. Doing some in game target dummy testing I worked out in using a non MB casting method vs using MB that I can convert 10 MF ticks per minute to 7 MBs which is an obvious DPS gain.

    It would be good of the discussion could revolve around those points rather than go off on tangents about replenishment etc which isn't really relevent to the discussion. Of course if you need to proc replenishment you do it, this is a theoretical discussion about max dps... what you physically do to help your raid is another discussion.

  17. #37
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmigo
    show me the way of 23ms plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Scandinavia is this way -->

    We also got great beer!

  18. #38

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    It's annoying. I've been using my rotation for such a long time, and only recently i'm finding i'm putting out MORE dps when I just spam mind flay, and only mind blast after I refresh VT.


    It's pissing me off.

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  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    There is no DPS gain from dropping MB from your rotation as a very good/elite level shadowpriest, go in a dummy and test it your self or remove MB from your bars for 1 raid night and check it while you going down on DPS meters.

    There is only a minor DPS gain in perfect situation with -low as hell- latency perfect casting and no or very little movement, and since there is no such possibility keep your MB in your regular rotation and close your ears, MB it's still a backbone of our rotation drop it only when you are under Heroism/Bloodlust FULLLSTOP.

  20. #40

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Direshadow
    It's annoying. I've been using my rotation for such a long time, and only recently i'm finding i'm putting out MORE dps when I just spam mind flay, and only mind blast after I refresh VT.
    There is likely some error in your casting sequence (ie. wait time, or clipping of some sort when you use MB) that is causing this effect. If you are casting both spells cleanly then MB remains a better spell than MF. There's a great discussion by Griemak in the DPS 101 thread which when taken with Worshaka's analysis earlier in this thread fairly conclusively proves that you should NOT be finding that MF>MB is any normal circumstance (Bloodlust with 4pc T10 exempted).

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