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  1. #41

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I love all the people who post all these absolutes like it's not possible for MB to be less dps MF unless hero/bloodlust. it's funny to me because lots of people are gaining more dps by MF spamming and leaving MB out of their rotation. Granted i'm sure there are some people who are pulling more dps by leaving it in their rotation.

    I still would like to see given a modest 4pc tier 10 ICC gear set (assuming at least a few 264 pieces and some 251) a modest amount of latency (nothing like 23ms or as bad as 400ms+) and some room for imperfection (since i doubt any of you are perfect) how much dps are we talking about in an average encounter of 300 seconds length. Hell even assume it's a festergut fight that you are standing in melee range.

    The argument has been which is better, i just wonder how much (if by any mount) is it a dps gain, given the simplicity of a MF spam rotation via one cd less to manage and less situations where you have to decide which to cast first (either way will delay the cast time/uptime of something else).

    From the way it looks it just depends on so many different variables. For no two people the results are going to be the same.

    Also you can't say "test it on a dummy" because since the coefficient on MF is higher than MB, MF is going to get stronger in a raid situation where are you buffed more. For some people it has been close on the dummy and then in raid MF came out as a winner. If MF is winning out on a dummy for you then there is no doubt it will win in raid over MB.

  2. #42
    Herald of the Titans ElAmigo's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Scandinavia is this way -->

    We also got great beer!
    ugg im stuck in north florida with 150-250 ms it blooooows
    "Didn't we have some fun...though? Remember when the platform was sliding into the fire pit and I said 'Goodbye' and you were like 'No way' and then I was all 'We pretended we were going to murder you'......that was great"

  3. #43

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenityx
    I love all the people who post all these absolutes like it's not possible for MB to be less dps MF unless hero/bloodlust.
    It's possible for MB to be less DPS if you are either a) doing something wrong with your casting, or b) getting abnormally high crit rates when you test a MF only rotation, or c) getting lucky timing on your procs when testing the MF only rotation.

    If it's a) then you will see larger DPS gains by working on improving your casting precision. If it's b) or c) you need to do more extensive testing because the results you're citing are being distorted by RNG.

    At current gear levels dropping MB is a DPS loss. By the end of the expansion (when you're in all ilvl 277 gear) this may change, but I guarantee you're not in that type of gear yet! There is no gain to be had by dropping MB unless there's some sort of casting error occurring.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serenityx
    The argument has been which is better, i just wonder how much (if by any mount) is it a dps gain
    We should be able to sort this out fairly easily using the information Worshaka posted earlier in this thread. By his calculation it's a tradeoff between 7 MB casts and 10 ticks of MF per minute. Using my average values for each spell from our last raid (and assuming you cast as well as Worshaka) dropping MB would be a ~170 DPS loss. In other words, dropping MB is a loss on the order of your 2 piece T10 set bonus.

    We gain an extra 8% haste in a raid situation, so let's argue you could get an extra tick of MF in per minute. This is doubtful because your DOT's will also be ticking faster and will require more frequent refreshes, but let's assume it is correct. In this case it's still a >100 DPS loss to go with a MF only rotation. We should also remember that MB generally scales "less poorly" with movement than MF due to the cooldown.

    To summarize - if you want to drop >100 DPS and stop bringing replenishment to your raid then MF spam is for you. If you want to maximize your DPS and remain relevant in your raid then keep casting MB.



  4. #44

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    100dps shit that is less than RNG, less complicated rotation, more raid awareness, and i have three other replenishment sources in my 25 man.... i'll go with the MF spam and call it a day.

    BTW what if simulation craft is telling me that the DPET of MF is higher than MB, wouldn't it be safe to say MF spam is better. I'm pretty sure this is true. If so, why argue any of this, run your build through simulationcraft and if MF is higher drop mb if not than then keep it in. Like i previously stated, if the dps increase is 100 - 150 range why bother? considering the dps loss from inevitable collisions, if you further delay MB to ensure uptime on your dots than the increase in dps is even smaller than the 100- 150 guestimate.

    I am more posing questions rather than stating im correct, just seems like to me many people are not even trying to think along these lines and are just advocating MB at all costs with much bias.

  5. #45

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    I just drop priority off mind blast, rather than every CD mind blast, mind blast where it fits best in rotation and dot refreshment.

    Worshaka talks about the latency difference between channeled and qued cast, another person talks about mind blast after every VT. Go the other way, flay after VT, flay after MB with qued spells.

    I've dropped imp mind blast talent but i still cast the spell regularly even when I'm not the only replenishment.

  6. #46

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka

    Because MF is channeled you cannot spam your next spell button because doing so will clip or interrupt the MF channel. Thus you need to wait until you reach the red latency portion of your cast bar which is now innaccurate (the latency shown was your latency at the start of the cast and it can change by the time it reaches the end of your cast). In addition, there will be a portion of reaction time lag in addition to latency for the client to contact the server... so assuming you don't accidently clip which will be a danger with latency changes you are likely to cop 50 to 100ms reaction lag + your latency on top of that.
    And this is where I stopped caring about your opinion.
    /cast [nochanneling:mind flay] Mind Flay

    TADAAA spamable button.

  7. #47

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactrot
    And this is where I stopped caring about your opinion.
    /cast [nochanneling:mind flay] Mind Flay

    TADAAA spamable button.
    You should read the discussion before discounting others research. No-channel macros are the worst solution because of the way the game client interacts with the server. Go read the rest of Worshaka's post or read Griemak's in the DPS 101 thread if you want to understand why.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serenityx
    100dps shit that is less than RNG, less complicated rotation, more raid awareness, and i have three other replenishment sources in my 25 man.... i'll go with the MF spam and call it a day.

    BTW what if simulation craft is telling me that the DPET of MF is higher than MB, wouldn't it be safe to say MF spam is better. I'm pretty sure this is true. If so, why argue any of this, run your build through simulationcraft and if MF is higher drop mb if not than then keep it in.
    As with Cactrot, you could learn a lot by reading the discussion on the last few pages of the Shadowpriest DPS 101 thread (the answer to your question about simcraft is discussed there). If you choose to drop MB for your own reasons that's fine. It's just not the way to maximize the DPS potential of your toon.

    Also - you can't have something be "less than RNG". That makes no sense! RNG will sometimes result in more crits or fortunate timing on procs, resulting in some parses being stronger than others. Using MB changes the potential by >100 DPS. If you get positive or negative RNG you will still have 100 more DPS!

  8. #48

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmigo
    ugg im stuck in north florida with 150-250 ms it blooooows
    got ~220 ms when using my cell phone to acces internet (speedy phone with unlimited internet acces \o/)
    and about 40-60 when using the normal line

    now just to get that weird FPS lag to vanish and it's all fine again ^.^

  9. #49

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Its very much up to your own discretion on how to use mind blast. In my opinion these are the main options:
    • Mind blast every CD, this is only really usable with extremely low MS
    • Never mind blast
    • Mind blast every 10-15seconds to keep up replenishment
    • Mind blast as a filler as i mentioned previously

    Now as i said, its up to you to try the methods and see which works best for you with your gear, latency and general player ability; Personally i go with the last option.

  10. #50
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenityx
    Also you can't say "test it on a dummy" because since the coefficient on MF is higher than MB, MF is going to get stronger in a raid situation where are you buffed more. For some people it has been close on the dummy and then in raid MF came out as a winner. If MF is winning out on a dummy for you then there is no doubt it will win in raid over MB.
    Dummy DPS is indeed the worst way to judge a spell or a rotation, the best way to see what's working best for you is to try it in real raid situation, so if you or anyone else have doubts go try it.

    Because asking "should i remove MB or not from my rotation" is retarded imo, when i got my 4T10 i done 5-6 raids to see how MF works with it, for my 2 next raids i removed MB from my bars completely, the result was to see my DPS going down in every single Boss fihth, so i really don't care whatever people saying even if i am the last one who uses MB on his rotation i will keep doing it cause dropping MB doesn't works for me. that's how simple it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactrot
    And this is where I stopped caring about your opinion.
    /cast [nochanneling:mind flay] Mind Flay

    TADAAA spamable button.
    No channeling macros is one of the biggest failures in priest community,if people knew how client-server interacting with each other the would agree, but whatever.

  11. #51

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    This I have just copied from shadowpriest.com

    The table assumes the following environmental conditions exist to calculate MF and MB cast times not shown but reflected in the table's calculations:
    5% haste raid buff
    3% haste raid buff
    4 piece Tier 10 bonus

    The numbers are:
    TOTAL DELAY in seconds - network, human, brain, computer, server latency - estimate wisely, do not over estimate the delay (100ms is 0.100 seconds)
    HASTE - haste rating on gear only
    TOTAL SPELL POWER - the spell power listed has no inclusions and should be compared against the minimum raid-buffed spell power while in combat for the most accuracy

    Haste: 0.05 - 0.075 - 0.100 - 0.15 - 0.20 - 0.250 <-delay in seconds
    1200: 4439 - 4236 - 4054 - 3741 - 3480 - 3259
    1190: 4440 - 4238 - 4056 - 3742 - 3482 - 3261
    1180: 4441 - 4239 - 4057 - 3744 - 3484 - 3264
    1170: 4442 - 4240 - 4059 - 3746 - 3486 - 3266
    1160: 4443 - 4241 - 4060 - 3748 - 3488 - 3268
    1150: 4444 - 4243 - 4062 - 3750 - 3490 - 3271
    1140: 4444 - 4244 - 4064 - 3752 - 3492 - 3273
    1130: 4445 - 4245 - 4065 - 3754 - 3495 - 3275
    1120: 4446 - 4247 - 4067 - 3756 - 3497 - 3277
    1110: 4447 - 4248 - 4068 - 3758 - 3499 - 3280
    1100: 4448 - 4249 - 4070 - 3760 - 3501 - 3282
    1090: 4449 - 4250 - 4071 - 3762 - 3503 - 3284
    1080: 4450 - 4252 - 4073 - 3764 - 3505 - 3287
    1070: 4451 - 4253 - 4074 - 3766 - 3508 - 3289
    1060: 4452 - 4254 - 4076 - 3767 - 3510 - 3291
    1050: 4453 - 4256 - 4078 - 3769 - 3512 - 3294
    1040: 4454 - 4257 - 4079 - 3771 - 3514 - 3296
    1030: 4455 - 4258 - 4081 - 3773 - 3516 - 3298
    1020: 4456 - 4260 - 4082 - 3775 - 3519 - 3301
    1010: 4457 - 4261 - 4084 - 3777 - 3521 - 3303
    1000: 4458 - 4262 - 4085 - 3779 - 3523 - 3305
    990: 4459 - 4263 - 4087 - 3781 - 3525 - 3308
    980: 4460 - 4265 - 4089 - 3783 - 3527 - 3310
    970: 4461 - 4266 - 4090 - 3785 - 3530 - 3312
    960: 4462 - 4267 - 4092 - 3787 - 3532 - 3315
    950: 4463 - 4269 - 4093 - 3789 - 3534 - 3317
    940: 4464 - 4270 - 4095 - 3791 - 3536 - 3320
    930: 4465 - 4271 - 4096 - 3793 - 3538 - 3322
    920: 4466 - 4273 - 4098 - 3795 - 3541 - 3324
    910: 4467 - 4274 - 4100 - 3797 - 3543 - 3327
    900: 4468 - 4275 - 4101 - 3799 - 3545 - 3329
    890: 4469 - 4277 - 4103 - 3801 - 3547 - 3331
    880: 4470 - 4278 - 4104 - 3803 - 3550 - 3334
    870: 4471 - 4279 - 4106 - 3805 - 3552 - 3336
    860: 4472 - 4280 - 4108 - 3807 - 3554 - 3339
    850: 4472 - 4282 - 4109 - 3809 - 3556 - 3341
    840: 4473 - 4283 - 4111 - 3811 - 3559 - 3344
    830: 4474 - 4284 - 4112 - 3813 - 3561 - 3346
    820: 4475 - 4286 - 4114 - 3815 - 3563 - 3348
    810: 4476 - 4287 - 4116 - 3817 - 3565 - 3351
    800: 4477 - 4288 - 4117 - 3819 - 3568 - 3353
    790: 4478 - 4290 - 4119 - 3821 - 3570 - 3356
    780: 4479 - 4291 - 4120 - 3823 - 3572 - 3358
    770: 4480 - 4292 - 4122 - 3825 - 3574 - 3361
    760: 4481 - 4294 - 4124 - 3827 - 3577 - 3363
    750: 4482 - 4295 - 4125 - 3829 - 3579 - 3365
    740: 4483 - 4296 - 4127 - 3831 - 3581 - 3368
    730: 4484 - 4298 - 4128 - 3833 - 3584 - 3370
    720: 4485 - 4299 - 4130 - 3835 - 3586 - 3373
    710: 4486 - 4300 - 4132 - 3837 - 3588 - 3375
    700: 4487 - 4302 - 4133 - 3839 - 3590 - 3378
    690: 4488 - 4303 - 4135 - 3841 - 3593 - 3380
    680: 4489 - 4304 - 4136 - 3843 - 3595 - 3383
    670: 4490 - 4306 - 4138 - 3845 - 3597 - 3385
    660: 4491 - 4307 - 4140 - 3847 - 3600 - 3388
    650: 4492 - 4308 - 4141 - 3849 - 3602 - 3390
    It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.

  12. #52

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    The table above is bogus, I'll change it right now. It is from a time when theorycrafting was still being performed. We have real world testing now that shows MF's delay can be 140-160% longer than MB's delay, on average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    After doing a lot of research and testing i've come to the conclusion that latency/lag/reaction time attributed to MB can be pretty much nullified but the latency/lag/reaction time of MF cannot...
    Came up with that all on your own?

    Tests on training dummies tell you one thing: you spent time at a training dummy, nothing else. MF scales better than MB with haste and spellpower: without the full suite of caster raid buffs, it is even more of an uphill climb for MF > MB to be true. If your dots are in order and you have learned to channel, dropping MB is a loss for almost all of us short of the ilvl 277 best in slot gear. If your dot uptime is suffering or you can not channel, you can either better yourself in casting to become a better spriest or drop MB to try to make the class easier for you; the latter being a short-term minded goal with the prior paying off much higher in the end. For some reason, the dropping of MB has sparked alot of emotion. If you follow shadowpriest.com for gemming and gearing, the exact same tests and methodology was used to see if dropping MB was a gain: results came back negative for gain in dropping MB for most of us. It has nothing to do with "holding" on, it has more to do with understanding the difference between a channel and a cast and how the two interact with our FCFS priority system while trying to dispel myths and untruths. "MF casts really fast now, I don't need MB" would be one of those myths. The other is that MF's delay is the same as MB's delay; in reality MB's delay is much shorter due to it's near secured casting because it's base time = 1 GCD.

  13. #53

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyus

    As with Cactrot, you could learn a lot by reading the discussion on the last few pages of the Shadowpriest DPS 101 thread (the answer to your question about simcraft is discussed there). If you choose to drop MB for your own reasons that's fine. It's just not the way to maximize the DPS potential of your toon.

    Also - you can't have something be "less than RNG". That makes no sense! RNG will sometimes result in more crits or fortunate timing on procs, resulting in some parses being stronger than others. Using MB changes the potential by >100 DPS. If you get positive or negative RNG you will still have 100 more DPS!
    What i was trying to say but horribly failed it seems by saying "less than rng" is that the difference is small, really really small. This is not as bad as arguing boot enchants but it's pretty bad. I agree that these forums and many of these discussions are about min/maxing, it usually is never something practical. 100 dps over a 5 minute fight is 30k damage.

    I'll see my way out of this thread, I am not someone who could benefit from this thread. These discussions are great, it's nice to know what is your max potential and for those seeking those answers they will find their answer here. Despite what is practical you guys have proven at least mathematically that MB>MF. In practice i think many will find the other to be true, and of course those people will be considered "bad" and that they need to l2play.

    I have already made my contribution to this thread and offered a more practical view to this debate. Then again if i look at the question in the subject bar it never asked which is practical or which is better but when is MF>MB?

    My answer given from a purely practical point of view is this:

    Test both in a raid situation, whichever is more dps for you then go ahead and do that. What is possible for very few may not be for you. Keep in mind keeping MB in rotation considering how much it will complicate your priority system if you can pull it off will yield you less than 200 dps and most likely lower. If you need to keep it for replenishment than the thread in total is moot for you.

    If you can gain some raid awareness, get your up time on your dots higher, and cleaner MF casting by dropping MB you will get more dps than having any of those other things less than perfect and keeping mb in your priority queue. Of course if all of those other things are a non issue and you feel you can't do those things any better and will be able to keep doing so and add MB(or i should say keep MB) then go ahead and try your best. From what has been stated here with much length and numbers MB>MF unless your wearing an impossibly high lvl of gear that almost no one, if any one will be able to obtain.

    When is MF>MB? It is when YOU can't yield higher dps by keeping it in your rotation v.s. dropping it, this will happen sooner based on how fast you get better gear and how much of it you obtain. Sorry for repeating some of the things i have said already in this thread, but i wanted this post to be able to stand on it's own.

  14. #54

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactrot
    And this is where I stopped caring about your opinion.
    /cast [nochanneling:mind flay] Mind Flay

    TADAAA spamable button.
    This sort of response highlights how ignorant some people are... you obvioulsy have no idea how a no channeling macro works so i'll explain.

    I'll start with a spell nuke and assume 0.3 sec lag on a 2 sec cast. Spamming the button up 0.3 seconds to go does nothing, however in the last 0.3 seconds the client knows your lag is 300ms and thus will now spell queue the next spell. This is how lag is overcome, because you can spell queue a spell within your lag's worth of time remaining on your current cast.

    Nochanneling macro... when you get to the last 0.3 sec the server will no spell queue, this is because the macro stops any spell queueing while channeling. Basically the client tells the server you are still channeling and the server will ignore queueing a new spell. Once you finish channeling the server will now accept spell queues, however from the fact that it wouldn't spell queue while you were channeling you cop the full amount of latency onto your next cast.

    If you don't believe me you can go test it out with queuing up VT to MB back to VT on a dummy and you will see them flawlessly cast... the only lag you'll cop is about 50ms for reaction time in pressing the button quick enough.

    Now go spam your MF, you will see the MF animation drop before you recast the 2nd, this is your latency inbetween the spells being applied due to the technical aspects of the nochanneling macro.

    Now if you do it without a nochanneling macro you have the facility to lower that lag, however if your latency drops during casting you risk clipping the last tick of MF and because you are being forced to react to the end of the cast you will find your reaction time is greater than 50ms because you're not mindless spamming... by the time your eyes process the info and get the signal to your fingers to press and then depress the button (depresses is what WoW registers) its greater than 50ms... a trick to eliminate this a bit is to hold the button down and simply release at the right time, but again that form of spell queuing will be greater lag than 50ms you get from spamming.

    You can also look towards the end of the shadow DPS 101 thread to see an indepth discussion of this very information, it comes from multiple sources so think carefully before trying to tear down what i've said. By doing so you'll have to account for the numerous posts in that thread by other people sayign the exact same thing... and i've done a lot of research from other sources that backs up the fact that channeled spells have more lag than spell nukes for the very reason I outline.

  15. #55

    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen
    Dummy DPS is indeed the worst way to judge a spell or a rotation, the best way to see what's working best for you is to try it in real raid situation, so if you or anyone else have doubts go try it.
    The DPS figure is a poor way but cast analysis is a good way... this is a way to remove the RNG from the actual DPS figure and to maximise the total number of casts or the total number of maximised GCD's in a given time.

    If you read my post about using MB and not using MB you would see that I found that by using MB I would lose about 10 ticks of MF per minute but in doing so would gain about 7 MB casts per minute.

    So for the no MB cast method to be superior it would mean that 10 ticks of MF need to generate more damage than 7 casts of MB... without getting into details that simply isn't the case... so I feel I can effectively conclude that havign MB in your cast rotation is a DPS gain.

    I can also quantify the DPS gain... using something like Rawr I can input all the variables of raid buffs etc and get the value of an average MF tick vs an average MB cast. In my cast MF is 3220 vs MB 6269... so i'm basically converting 10 * 3220 = 32,200 damage into 7 * 6269 = 43,883 every minute... or if you like a gain of 11,683 per 60 seconds or 195 DPS.

    Now I will concede that 3% & 5% raid haste potentially upset the numbers, however I would conclude they wouldn't upset them by a significant amount but that is a subjective feeling. In addition bloodlust/heroism is going to radically change 40 seconds of the encounter where you are likely to completely bench MB...

    However in a 5min encounter 40 sec of BL/Heroism becomes minor in the grand scheme and there is still 4 mins of solid damage gain.

    When does a DPS increase become redundant? I hardly believe that 195 DPS is trivial... assuming 9K standard DPS, an increase of 195 is a 2.17% gain and lets face it, if we had the means to get another talent to give 2% more damage we'd take it.

    We also get excited by a lot less... if we gain 20SP we would consider that a major upgrade but the effect on DPS of 20SP isn't anything like 2%. However if someone wasn't using 23SP gems in a certain slot when we know they should we'd be quite harsh on their gear customisation. I think people need to understand that every gain can be a significant gain... I don't buy the argument that MB doesn't increase our DPS by enough to worry about... for those committed to performing at their very best, the MB DPS gain appears to me to be extremely significant.

  16. #56
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Re: Shadowpriest: When is MF > MB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    don't buy the argument that MB doesn't increase our DPS by enough to worry about... for those committed to performing at their very best, the MB DPS gain appears to me to be extremely significant.
    I don't buy it either,i won't drop MB, i have tried it and it failed, ut good shadowpriests are the minority.
    The only reason that someone have to drop MB is being mediocre/bad shadowpriest (the vast majority of SPs) to get their rotation simplified, they are same people that would be happy to see an 1-button spam shadowpriest.
    So replace a spell that has CD,cast time and is not so good scaling and voila go nuts spamming your beloved MF even if you lose 100-200DPS who cares, that the (shadow) spirit.


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