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  1. #21

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Now that i've played with 4pc T10 a bit... I suggest that you no longer clip MF for MB, but still clip it for VT/DP... again i'll do a bit more work but that's my experience thus far but I totally admit that is based on my gut feeling and experience rather than number crunching.

  2. #22
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    How much haste are you testing it out with Worshaka?

    Raid buffed MF is closing in on being almost the same as a GCD. I'd estimate by the end of ICC, we'll have enough haste to hit the GCD cap during Black Magic procs, and/or Heroism.

  3. #23

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Clipping MF to cast a spell that is higher on the priority list is always a DPS gain...
    There's also the method where you can clip MF with another MF in order to get extra ticks in before MB comes off cool down. I found this style of play quite useful in the 3.1 raid cycle, and have been actively clipping for MB and VT/DP since.

    Also, should note that I don't agree with the discussion at SP.com (linked earlier in this thread) by PiousFlea as I don't think it's relevant to examine the impact of spells on a "part cast" basis. For example, I would consider the damage done by 1.6 MF ticks to be quite academic and largely irrelevant. The timeframe examined needs to be longer in order to properly see the impact of delaying subsequent casts - similar to the analysis of MB vs. VT back in 3.1.

    Earlier in the week I looked at the total damage output over two DP cycles (using my level of haste - ~980, 2pc T9/T10). The numbers I looked at indicated that when the average delay for clipping (time after the tick + latency) is greater than about 200ms, it becomes a slight disadvantage. If the total delay is ~100ms or lower it should be around a 50 dps increase if well executed.

    I didn't bother to run numbers for the 4pc T10 bonus, but would suggest that it's not worth clipping at all once you have it. It's important to remember that human reaction time does not improve (and may even get a bit worse) when we get more haste.

  4. #24

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    get MFclip addon, it's absolutely amazing. Shows dot timers, when to clip and when to start recasting VT. Oh and it got a MB cooldown timer as well.

  5. #25

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Weena2
    While im at it i want to say that this statement is false. I know many shadowpriests, including myself that live in Australia and all do amazing dps, i cannot speak for all of them but if you look at the oceanic realms and then go to the WMO shadowpriest dps rankings (found here - http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/pri/9/6/3) you will see a large number are from Oceanic servers. Incase you dont know oceanic servers i would do a CTRL + F on Barthilas, Frostmourne and Dreadmaul. There are some oceanic shadowpriests that do very good dps with terrible MS.
    1. Oceanic servers are still hosted in the US, so someone playing in the US can still be on an oceanic server and receive standard US ping.

    2. Just because it's an oceanic server does not mean the entire population are for oceania.

    3. Any info you provide from WMO does not tell us the average ping of the player in question, so linking that evidence doesn't prove a thing. All you can do is assume they are from oceania and have a ping rate that you and I experience but at the end of the day that's just pure speculation.

  6. #26

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    How much haste are you testing it out with Worshaka?

    Raid buffed MF is closing in on being almost the same as a GCD. I'd estimate by the end of ICC, we'll have enough haste to hit the GCD cap during Black Magic procs, and/or Heroism.
    1087 haste rating and with raid buffs & 4pc T10 equates to a MF channel of 1.7361 seconds. For us to have MF GCD capped we would require unobtainable amounts of haste. Assuming Swift Retribution & Wrath of Air combined with 4pc T10, you would require 4301 haste rating to lower MF to a 1 sec cast.

    My understanding is that Black Magic increases your haste rating by 250 for 10 seconds, so you would still require 4051 haste rating to GCD cap MF with 4pc T10. I therefore find your claim a little that your MF is nearly the same as a GCD a little unbelieavable, or at the very least somewhat eggagerated.

    You did mention heroism, under BL/heroism you require 2552 haste rating or 2302 during BL/Heroism and Black Magic proc.

  7. #27
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Well, depends how much haste lowers our GCD? The base GCD is 1.5 seconds, and I had Mind Flay at 1.4 second cast time in raids.

    You're assmusing a GCD of 1.0 seconds in your math there I guess?

  8. #28
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    If I understood the math correct, 50% haste would provide a half second reduction. So lets assume 30% haste buffed, and bloodlust. That would make 60% haste, so yeah, 1 second GCD.

  9. #29

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    I have found after 4pc t10 you really should try several things on a dummy for a while and see how well you do.

    1. Drop MB or not drop MB
    2. Clip mf for MB or don't clip
    3. Clip MF for VT/DP or don't clip

    Most of my friends including myself have all found that clipping MF not only is much harder now but it proving to be either a very small dps increase/none or lower dps. It is not much higher even if you are a God and do it perfectly all the time. MB, if you are semi ICC geared with 4 piece t10 dropping mb out of rotation will most likely be a dps increase. Again try it out on a dummy.

    Note that results on a dummy will differ from real life but when it comes to things with timing and clipping if it was barely an increase on a dummy it will be even less so in raid when your moving around and dealing with encounter mechanics. No math/spreadsheets here just experience. Not putting those things down they have there place.

  10. #30
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Math in WoW is the biggest pile of careface shit anyways.

    It's fairly simple today: "Get Tier 10, because tier is always win, and then loot what the other casters loot, ie. stuff with nice stats on it, like haste".

    10000000 pages of theorycraft with one thing in common: It's just talk for the talk, their provided dps increases rarely goes about 10 in total.

    And if you care about 10 dps, you're likely to die in a void zone.

  11. #31

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia

    10000000 pages of theorycraft with one thing in common: It's just talk for the talk, their provided dps increases rarely goes about 10 in total.

    And if you care about 10 dps, you're likely to die in a void zone.
    LMAO true.

    Not to "ohh not this shit again" but when people argue boot enchants and their dps increase it makes me cringe.

  12. #32

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Now that i've played with 4pc T10 a bit... I suggest that you no longer clip MF for MB, but still clip it for VT/DP... again i'll do a bit more work but that's my experience thus far but I totally admit that is based on my gut feeling and experience rather than number crunching.
    In reasonably good gear with 4T10 - yours and mine, for example - Simulationcraft shows MB has slightly lower DPET (Damage Per Execute Time) than MF. Clipping for MB would be a small loss in DPS even with perfect timing. I throw one MB per VT period to keep up Replenishment, and I'll even drop that during Bloodlust.

    On paper clipping for VT and DP is a DPS increase, but actual results depend on far too many variables to really make a blanket statement either way. I choose to clip, but I wouldn't disrespect anyone who doesn't.

  13. #33

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard
    In reasonably good gear with 4T10 - yours and mine, for example - Simulationcraft shows MB has slightly lower DPET (Damage Per Execute Time) than MF. Clipping for MB would be a small loss in DPS even with perfect timing. I throw one MB per VT period to keep up Replenishment, and I'll even drop that during Bloodlust.

    On paper clipping for VT and DP is a DPS increase, but actual results depend on far too many variables to really make a blanket statement either way. I choose to clip, but I wouldn't disrespect anyone who doesn't.
    Whether you drop MB or not depends on your level of gear. Generally speaking if you have 4pc T10 you're at that level of gear but it wouldn't hurt to research it yourself. And the major DPS increase from dropping MB is increasing the simplicity of the spell sequence we're casting. It also makes haste stacking a bit more effecient becuse we're no longer weaving in a spell that can limit the effectiveness of haste.

    Personally the fact that VT and DP are close to 3 times higher in damage per execute time I can't understand any reason not to clip MF for these spells and in practical testing on dummies I notice a significant dps loss by not clipping.

    Lastly you mention replenishment, if you're one of a few classes doing it you need to MB on occasion as you point out because at the end of the day your personal DPS means very little in the context of an entire raid. It's obviously better for your raid that healers don't go oom and your fellow caster DPS don't start wanding towards the end of the encounter.

  14. #34
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    We usually got 3 other replenishers in my raids, so I've stopped using MB completely. It's itching in my finger though, wanting to press it.

  15. #35

    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    We usually got 3 other replenishers in my raids, so I've stopped using MB completely. It's itching in my finger though, wanting to press it.
    I'm in the same boat but you should be aware if you need to proc replenishment for your given raid and if people die early it's a good idea to understand if you need to start procing it.

  16. #36
    I am Murloc!
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    Re: About MF clipping (one more time !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    I'm in the same boat but you should be aware if you need to proc replenishment for your given raid and if people die early it's a good idea to understand if you need to start procing it.
    Yep

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