Re: Getting Banned from the Shaman Forum

[ReplyCodeAlpha]

So Panda's post about not getting a reply from an admin doesn't get deleted but mine does... Mmkay.

[Elementium]

I don't agree with number 1. part of many of the class communities is posting an armory and saying "help me out". It's bad enough people can't ask for help without getting the "use enhsim and gtfo" response.

It's a nice tool but we should be allowed to talk to each other. All this is going to do is scare people into not asking for help by using a very popular and very helpful method. I've been doing it on the warrior forum a bit and i've got a lot of help through them.

otherwise not bad on the forum rules.

[sbradly1986]

Have to agree.
Obviously we have a moderator fed up with the crap on the forums (an hopefully bans will be inc to trolls etc)
But...
Yeah dont agree with Rule 1. FAQ's and guides cant give you all the answers, more exp shamans can help others find necessary gear that needs upgrading and so on..

BTW, is this just a shaman forum rule list? apart from a few rules eg 2, this seems to be more a forum wide list....

[Deleted]

You will note that rule 3 caters for those that have read the FAQ and still need help.

Rule 1 specifically is saying posting a thread that is here is my character tell me what to do is unacceptable because they clearly have made zero effort to read the info provided. Someone who doesn't bother reading the stickies is just spamming the forum.

Those who are regulars will know that I go out of my way to help those that try to help themselves but need extra assistance. Regulars will also know that I cannot tolerate fools who can't be bothered actually reading what's been provided by myself and others and think that they are somehow special and don't need to bother trying to help themselves.

ie: Rule 1 is there for a very very good reason and is staying.

[lanerios]

so let's make a list what we can't do:

Start a thread about 2H fun as enhancement (in direct conflict with #2)
Rate my armoury and dps (#1)
General questions (Read the faq blablabla etc)


So why do we have a forum? Hmm, not for questions, that much is obvious.
If I want to make a topic about 2H as enhancement, be it a "is it viable" or a "would it be fun if I tried x", I should be able to, and not immediatly threatened with a ban. What's next? "Any paladin topics containing the word bubble, LOH or anything close to a paladin spell will be a ban"?

[Embermoon]

lanerios, Levva didn't say you can't ask general questions.

Here's how I see it, and have experienced it:

- Questions that clearly show that a poster didn't bother to read the FAQ will be (and SHOULD be) temp-banned. Even if it's for a day, it lets the person know "Hey stupid, quit being lazy and wasting forum space with useless crap that you don't even need to ask, since it's already been answered."

- However, questions that are more carefully and intelligently-worded, so as to indicate that the poster HAS read, and wants further clarification on the FAQ, are gladly and eagerly answered.

- I understand the reasoning behind the 2-hander. For anyone who's been through the theorycrafting on it, it's an old, tired, busted, and dead topic. However, for newer players, I think the rule is a too restrictive for this forum. This forum has been greatly improved, but shouldn't approach the restrictiveness of EJ. What I'd suggest is to have a stickied thread on 2-hander enhancement, and let it be a sandbox for the kids who want to play in it. As people post back-and-forth in it, any reader will get caught up on the theorycrafting. Let the rule be, instead, that anyone posting new 2-hand enhance topics, outside that thread, are subject to ban.


Outside of that one change, I approve of these rules.

[Elementium]

You will note that rule 3 caters for those that have read the FAQ and still need help.

Rule 1 specifically is saying posting a thread that is here is my character tell me what to do is unacceptable because they clearly have made zero effort to read the info provided. Someone who doesn't bother reading the stickies is just spamming the forum.

Those who are regulars will know that I go out of my way to help those that try to help themselves but need extra assistance. Regulars will also know that I cannot tolerate fools who can't be bothered actually reading what's been provided by myself and others and think that they are somehow special and don't need to bother trying to help themselves.

ie: Rule 1 is there for a very very good reason and is staying.

I disagree man. While yes people should read the stickies you should know by now that they don't and some won't change. I'll tell you what.. I'll help the people and you can just ignore them. This is such a high horse situation, Levva your a pro and we all know it, your a great developer and I couldnt live without ShockandAwe but some people just want their questions answered and whether it annoys you or not people find it more helpful when others can tell them specifically what they need to do. Look at the warrior forum, their is quite a few people breaking Shaman forums rule #1 and quite a few questions being repeated but you know what? if it helps the person I wouldn't mind answering their question 100 times and then pointing them to the sticky.

We need a forum to communicate and help eachother, not alienate every new shammy looking for help by telling them "here's the FAQ here's Enhsim, your on your own."

[Deleted]

I disagree man. While yes people should read the stickies you should know by now that they don't and some won't change. I'll tell you what.. I'll help the people and you can just ignore them. This is such a high horse situation, Levva your a pro and we all know it, your a great developer and I couldnt live without ShockandAwe but some people just want their questions answered and whether it annoys you or not people find it more helpful when others can tell them specifically what they need to do. Look at the warrior forum, their is quite a few people breaking Shaman forums rule #1 and quite a few questions being repeated but you know what? if it helps the person I wouldn't mind answering their question 100 times and then pointing them to the sticky.

We need a forum to communicate and help eachother, not alienate every new shammy looking for help by telling them "here's the FAQ here's Enhsim, your on your own."

If someone posts a question , while the answer to that exact question is already written in the FAQ, then the following will happen:
Some people will flame him/her for being ignorant and/or lazy.
Some will link the FAQ.
Some will link to the FAQ and answer the question.

Now... by banning those OPs, you can set an example on what people should not do.
By not doing anything to them and simply answering their question, you chose to let them be lazy and have success with it. They did not invest any effort or time to find it out by themselves, but still achieved success, because you showed 'em: "It's okay if you're a lazy bastard, people will help you anyways."
Yes, this is just a forum and therefore this mentality might be okay... but if one person thinks so and gets away with it, others will see that and do the same.
And this way we could eventually have a forum where every second thread is about:
"What's my hitcap?" "Why don't my spells hit?" "What's better for me, spellpower or spirit?" and other totally stupid questions.
That's not what I'd want to have, tbh....

offtopic: I'm one of those persons who help those posters nonetheless... while of course advising them to look at the FAQs >_>

[Embermoon]

Elementium, I can sympathize with you on two things: mainly, I wouldn't want to see this forum be as ridiculously policed as EJ's forums. It's cool that they do what they do, and I understand it, but this doesn't need to be a clone.

However, I disagree with your inferred position that posters should be allowed to clutter up the forums, in the exact manner that DaDimi is illustrating. For myself, I want to see the new guys helped out, but for crying out loud, if they can't help themselves, then why should anyone else? The appropriate analogy is that they're like guy dying from dehydration in the desert, because it was too hot to walk 100 yards to the oasis.

For myself, I'd like to see the first page of threads be comprised of a bunch of different good conversations, as opposed to a sprinkling of good convos, and half the page full of identical stupid questions.

[Barawr]

I disagree man. While yes people should read the stickies you should know by now that they don't and some won't change. I'll tell you what.. I'll help the people and you can just ignore them. This is such a high horse situation, Levva your a pro and we all know it, your a great developer and I couldnt live without ShockandAwe but some people just want their questions answered and whether it annoys you or not people find it more helpful when others can tell them specifically what they need to do. Look at the warrior forum, their is quite a few people breaking Shaman forums rule #1 and quite a few questions being repeated but you know what? if it helps the person I wouldn't mind answering their question 100 times and then pointing them to the sticky.

We need a forum to communicate and help eachother, not alienate every new shammy looking for help by telling them "here's the FAQ here's Enhsim, your on your own."

I feel you are pushing the rules to the wrong extreme. Having the view that everyone should be able to come in and ask the set questions of "How much hit do I need?", "How much expertise do I need" or any of the very general questions such as those is just wrong. The purpose of creating a FAQ is to cover the guidelines such as those very specific numbers which are important to reach for any raiding shaman. Users who are too lazy to take the time to simply READ what is pre-written for them don't deserve for us to hold their hand and just tell them anyways.

Any questions outside of that are freely welcome as we have had many great discussions on this forum related to stats, scaling, etc. etc. I don't care what another forum is doing because in the end when you visit that forum you only see back to back threads of "How much hit rating do I need?".

At this point in time EVERY single forum you visit has a set of rules, faqs and the like posted and stickied to the top. This goes far beyond WOW or anything related ( I mean ALL forums on the web). Part of being a forum browser who wishes to post is to read the set rules and understand these things, if not send a PM to a moderator.

[Nefertari22]

Personally I agree with the rules lain out here. It's much like EJ's forums only a little less strict. It doesn't mean you can't was questions it just cuts down on silly posts.

[Elementium]

I feel you are pushing the rules to the wrong extreme. Having the view that everyone should be able to come in and ask the set questions of "How much hit do I need?", "How much expertise do I need" or any of the very general questions such as those is just wrong. The purpose of creating a FAQ is to cover the guidelines such as those very specific numbers which are important to reach for any raiding shaman. Users who are too lazy to take the time to simply READ what is pre-written for them don't deserve for us to hold their hand and just tell them anyways.

Any questions outside of that are freely welcome as we have had many great discussions on this forum related to stats, scaling, etc. etc. I don't care what another forum is doing because in the end when you visit that forum you only see back to back threads of "How much hit rating do I need?".

At this point in time EVERY single forum you visit has a set of rules, faqs and the like posted and stickied to the top. This goes far beyond WOW or anything related ( I mean ALL forums on the web). Part of being a forum browser who wishes to post is to read the set rules and understand these things, if not send a PM to a moderator.

hey you guys are the bosses, i just think if you ban people and delete their post they still didn't get there questions answered, so now there's one more shaman out there who doesn't know what he's doing all because you didn't want to deal with them.

I don't know, like I said you guys make the rules we just browse the forums.

[Deleted]

hey you guys are the bosses, i just think if you ban people and delete their post they still didn't get there questions answered, so now there's one more shaman out there who doesn't know what he's doing all because you didn't want to deal with them.

I don't know, like I said you guys make the rules we just browse the forums.

They shouldn't delete those posts, if you ask me.
Just leave a message in the thread that the OP was banned and lock the topic.
This way others see what they shouldn't do and *hopefully* won't make the same mistake.

[Barawr]

And that is typically what we do. Locking a thread with an explanation makes more sense to the other forum members vs. deleting a thread and not knowing why.

[Deleted]

To be honest I NEVER delete topics. I do however lock them and usually post a message as to why they are locked. I haven't banned from this forum for ages and mostly let the "here's my armoury" threads live for a bit. This topic is there as guidance, not cast iron do this or be punished. This forum I see as the sort of place that people come to, in order to ask questions about shaman or to share information they have found.

The EJ rules insist that posters don't ask for handholding, have something new and interesting to say etc. I see here as being dramatically more relaxed, but trying to prevent it going the way of the Blizzard forums where any juvenile crap is posted again and again and again and again which just annoys the regulars and doesn't help those wanting to learn.

So that's where I'm at. Trying to make this a high content forum with limited irritating repetitive posts or stupid topics, where people feel free to debate stuff and ask questions without having threads ruined by turning into flame fests, or flooded with useless repetitive information. We will lock threads if they aren't meeting that standard, and for the very worst offenders will resort to a ban.

So life isn't all black n' white, please don't try to turn it into something it isn't.

[gaymer77]

Some simple rules.

1) We don't want to know about your gear and whether its any good. Read the FAQs to get the answers you seek. (NB. For the utterly clueless this includes your gems too).

3) If after reading the FAQs you still don't understand something please post. However quote the part of the FAQ you don't understand so that we know you have actually read them.

These are the only two rules I don't think are all that great. The others are extremely good ideas. The reason why I don't think 1 & 3 are that great is for several reasons but all boil down to a general thought behind them...forums like these are meant to be exchanges of ideas not just a few sticky FAQ's that have some generalized info and then links to external spreadsheets.

The resto sticky doesn't even address gear at all. All it does is state which totems you should get (2 pvp ones and 2 from badges), 3 trinkets to choose from, and then what enchants you should be using. It leaves much to be not understood.

The ele sticky is the same way with the exception of giving links for RAWR and SEIC to "discuss" the armor issue in the what stats on gear should I be going after but it states "handy in finding upgrades and help with gemming / enchanting" which would lead one to think it doesn't even help with gear at all but just gemming and enchanting selections for your gear.

Under the enh section "How can I work out what gear is best for me?" it just simply refers you to RAWR and gives a description of what that program does.

Given these new rules of not asking about gear simply means that there will be no discussion on gear allowed on mmo for shaman. No debates about taking 2p from tier X and adding it to 2piece from tier Y over having 4p from one tier set. There would be no discussion about how to help someone find gear that they could have access to and compare it to possible set bonuses. The shaman forums will turn into a watered down version of EJ that just refers people to spreadsheets or programs for that kind of help.

One of the things recently on the priest forums is a good example of what I'm talking about. http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pr...48/#msg1684148 Someone was asking for help with his gear because he felt he was over hit cap and thought his dps was suffering because of it. My reply to him (http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pr...90/#msg1691490) gave him suggestions based on his assumed selection from dungeons/crafting, gave him some insight on why to get certain pieces over other, offered him immediate upgrades and the BIS selections according to his level of progression, and cleared up some concerns he had in his post. Granted a lot of the other posts in that thread started going off on spell rotation, how much hit he would have to get as a draenei (he's UD so that's an invalid arguement) or had a druid with him (again invalid since the buffs don't stack), and just general useless info. But there was info there for him to see and advice on what to get.

Things like spreadsheets and RAWR don't take into concideration specific cases and most of the time looks at the most current xpac for giving suggestions. Like how there were quite a few high end resto shaman who were using 3p T2 in BC for the chain heal increase. Like how some AOE healers of all classes were using the trinket from AQ40 because of the chance for a bubble being put on them. Just like the BiS totem for enh shaman at the start of WotLK was a lvl 70 totem from badge of justice. Things like THAT aren't taken into concideration with spreadsheets and why open discussion should be allowed when someone is asking for help if they at least have some kind of idea what to be looking out for in the first place when they post.

[Elementium]

To be honest I NEVER delete topics. I do however lock them and usually post a message as to why they are locked. I haven't banned from this forum for ages and mostly let the "here's my armoury" threads live for a bit. This topic is there as guidance, not cast iron do this or be punished. This forum I see as the sort of place that people come to, in order to ask questions about shaman or to share information they have found.

The EJ rules insist that posters don't ask for handholding, have something new and interesting to say etc. I see here as being dramatically more relaxed, but trying to prevent it going the way of the Blizzard forums where any juvenile crap is posted again and again and again and again which just annoys the regulars and doesn't help those wanting to learn.

So that's where I'm at. Trying to make this a high content forum with limited irritating repetitive posts or stupid topics, where people feel free to debate stuff and ask questions without having threads ruined by turning into flame fests, or flooded with useless repetitive information. We will lock threads if they aren't meeting that standard, and for the very worst offenders will resort to a ban.

So life isn't all black n' white, please don't try to turn it into something it isn't.

Well then that sounds more acceptable. The way you wrote the rule seems incredibly bitter and cynical. If I was new and I just read that rule i'd probably not even risk asking a question for fear of being banned.

Of course at this point it probably seems like I'm just trying to hassle you lol. Sorry for turning your thread slightly negative.

[Squishy]

I'm behind Levva on the rules, and to reinforce it, I've always felt more comfortable asking for advice here, and even giving it here. It's a more friendly environment than many other forums, and I think that has a lot to do with the way that the forum is being run. I'm not trying to suck up here or anything, I just want to say thanks for making these forums the way they are, and I hope they stay this way ^_^
I should probably make some SUPERAWESOMESIG now that I frequent here more often though :X

[Genshin]

I should probably make some SUPERAWESOMESIG now that I frequent here more often though :X

Whatever do you mean good sir? Ur current sig exudes vitality and awesomeness by the buckets

[Deleted]

I've modified the post a little to make the language "friendlier" and added an explanatory note as to the aim of the rules.

@gaymer you are missing the point and being exceptionally selective in your quotes from the FAQs. The Enh FAQ has a large section covering stats, glyphs, trinkets etc as well as the section you quoted referring people to Rawr & EnhSim. It very very definitely doesn't just say go use Rawr and no other information so please don't twist reality to fit your argument.

It's also utter nonsense to suggest that the original wording of the rules would prevent discussion of "taking 2p from tier X and adding it to 2piece from tier Y over having 4p from one tier set. There would be no discussion about how to help someone find gear that they could have access to and compare it to possible set bonuses." How on earth do you get from rules that basically say "don't post your armoury, read the FAQ first" and "if you read the FAQ and don't understand please ask" to suggesting that means no discussion on set bonuses is allowed.

Seriously mate you are exaggerating to make a point and not a very good point. Open discussion is allowed and encouraged on any topic related to Shamans, provided its not just repeating an FAQ that we have all seen hundreds of times. This is proved by looking at the actual discussions that have taken place recently including those that posted armoury links but asked genuinely interesting questions, that the community got behind and discussed.

Its all about improving the "signal to noise" ratio making sure that the number of good interesting posts outweighs the crap.