Ensidia suspended for 72 Hours

[noahjam326]

Blizzard has more evidence and proof than any player has access to. They see things you can't. They have no obligation to share any of it with you.

[BondGirl]

what should i say.

im a wow player since over 4 years (more casual than hardcore) and was always suprised about those top guilds killing stuff in such insanely "short" periods after release.

i was reading about buggy encounters and even had some myself in the past lich king days.

but this time i think blizzard fucked smth totaly up. i just read some blogs from those guys and i can only say they kicked their best beta testers and bug finders in the nuts.

i think those guys can live 3 days w/o playing but think about the time they spent to discover new stuff and even report bugs (ofc sucks for others) after discovered. blizzard should have think twice about this decision.

cant care less about those ppl but i think its simply unfair towards the work those guys made for them.

but in the end. link a vid plox. exodus had the guts. so now its your turn

my 2cents and inb4 fanboy alert

rgds and gn8

[Mascotte]

Ensidia isn't stupid. They knew they were doing the wrong thing.


Not gonna say if the ban is deserved or not at the moment. IMO people are guilty unless proven otherwise, but so far I'm seeing a dead body and Ensidia has blood stains all over their shirts.

They also knew they where being watched by several game designers (Thats always the case when topguilds reach a new boss, so guess how much attention they got in the office when they reached the final boss of this expansion?)
Whats the gain for them to abuse anything even close to an exploit just to get a world first on a normal mode boss?
Next week when the first LK HM kills start rolling in no-one will care who got WF normal LK.
Would you still rob a store if the person standing behind you was an armed cop?
Dont think so.

Its not the fact if they exploited, its why on earth would they?

[VileMethoD]

Not like it's the first time time Ensidia has cheesed their way through an encounter. Only difference is this time there were consequences.

[Foxx]

I think that the important thing to realize is:
What would you do in their situation?

I would've abused that bug without as much as a second thought. I would've thought, "Awesome" and treated it like a godsend.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm assuming you would've done something similiar. Therefore: Get off your high horse and condemn them, saying that "they should've stopped" unless you would actually have stopped in their position, which I highly doubt. I'm not defending Ensidia, I'm just saying that a lot of people have no right to talk down to them for abusing a bug.

I wouldve gone on myself. It's not the same though.

I would've accepted the ban then if i'd be caught. On top of that Ensidia has a reputation to uphold.

If you encounter a bug like that you can do 2 things:
1) Report it and keep the honor to yourself if you're not world first.
2) Ignore it and go for it, with all the consequences that might follow.

They obviously chose option 2. And now they are bitching about those consequences ?
Get Real.

They are not stupid, they knew very well what they were going into when they chose to go on with the bug happening.

I do blame blizzard as well for this though. And I personally really wonder why nobody stepped in. You can't tell me that there is not a single GM watching over such fights, especially an Ensidia fight.
If blizzard didn't have anyone watch over that fight they are just fools, this happened on nearly every end boss so far. They'd be stupid not to track the top guilds on such things.
Get r

[apostate]

Blizzard doesn't test their stuff, then this happens.

FU Blizzard; how about you lay off your testers and hire new ones

Not that blizz would listen to what you just said anyway, but how about before you advocate ANYONE getting laid off in this economy, you learn just a smidgen of how QA works. You CAN in fact have reported issues to devs that STILL make it to live as producers and devs get to decide what gets fixed in what amount of time, not the QA group. You are aware wow gets patched because both users AND testers find issues, right? You are aware that there is a CRAP TON of content in this game at this point, right? You are aware even the largest test team (you know, that blizz has to pay salaries for, and if they incur more costs, who do you think they are passing that along to? Oh right, the consumer...) could potentially miss things with this much of a game to test, right? You know that there are far many more users than testers, and as such, they have a fairly decent chance of encountering bugs too, right?

It's clear you know nothing about the process.

[Sneek]

we are forgeting that anything Ensidia does is wrong by deafault.

If they choose to report the bug and let some other guild get the WF with the same glich (if supposedly used ofc), people would still say "lol ensidia you are a payed wow guild and you care about morals and fair play? lololol" Its extreme, but believe me many people would say that.

[Foxx]

They also knew they where being watched by several game designers (Thats always the case when topguilds reach a new boss, so guess how much attention they got in the office when they reached the final boss of this expansion?)
Whats the gain for them to abuse anything even close to an exploit just to get a world first on a normal mode boss?
Next week when the first LK HM kills start rolling in no-one will care who got WF normal LK.
Would you still rob a store if the person standing behind you was an armed cop?
Dont think so.

Its not the fact if they exploited, its why on earth would they?

Because they got a reputation riding on it.

I think they were feeling the heat of other guilds closing in. especially seeing as the LK10 encounter was beaten by several other top guilds as well.
They chose the risky route to fast fame, and bit the dust. That's their call.

Again, I do blame blizzard for not interfering. They should have put a stop to all LK encounters the second they saw this bug popping up.

[Offhand]

why does blizzard keep the PTRs up anyway if they release a live patch thats bugged?

100% Blizzard fault

So, just because you CAN break the rules of the game means that the rulebreakers aren't at fault?

[Power20]

My only comments would be...

1. These are very smart players and have been known to try and use game mechanics to their advantage before. It's been well documented. Therefor it's a little difficult for me to believe they didn't know what these bombs were doing after a few attempts.

2. It's been asked if they had players in their guild purposely power level engineering for this reason alone. It's not clear if they did it for this reason.

3. Based on their past reputation and the extreme their guild goes to just for the sake of killing a boss in a video game they deserve this ban.

Just a side note. I skimmed through Muqq's blog and have to laugh at how upset he got. Like taking candy away from a child. Please grow up.

yeah they clearly had ppl go power lvl it on they 3rd try... /facepalm

[Mascotte]

Because they got a reputation riding on it.

I think they were feeling the heat of other guilds closing in. especially seeing as the LK10 encounter was beaten by several other top guilds as well.
They chose the risky route to fast fame, and bit the dust. That's their call.

Again, I do blame blizzard for not interfering. They should have put a stop to all LK encounters the second they saw this bug popping up.

With the next LK25m kill being 18hours+ after theirs im pretty sure they weren't feeling the heat.
They still had 14 attempts left to kill him, and an entire ghost team geared to the teeth (Dutch expression, might not translate as well but ok) with at least 20 attempts worth of experience if all else fails.
Im not a fanboy by any means, and if they used something cheesy like flower power i would be on the blame side with the rest of you, but the banning is just wrong.
And its not even the banning, as if they care they cant play for 3 days. Its the never ending shame that has been put on the guild/players that will last long past any progress kills made. What's the last time you heard positive news about evading Yogg+0 guild ever since they got banned for that? Months?
The dev team should have just did a /despawn LK when they saw something was wrong, they didn't.
They allowed it, banned people for using it (intentional or not) and hotfixed it.
That just cant be justified by any means.

Just a side note. I skimmed through Muqq's blog and have to laugh at how upset he got. Like taking candy away from a child. Please grow up.

Its actually a complete parody on something that Tigole posted back in his Everyquest days with just boss/game names changed to match wow.
You know, the exact same post that got him onto the WoW dev team for ages.
The source link is listed somewhere in this topic, good luck finding it.

[Offhand]

They still had 14 attempts left to kill him, and an entire ghost team geared to the teeth (Dutch expression, might not translate as well but ok) with at least 20 attempts worth of experience if all else fails.

"Ghost team" or "geared to the teeth"? I can inference what you mean by "ghost team" but "to the teeth" is a pretty normal English expression.

[dweidman]

From http://www.ensidia.com/Ekyu/blog/4079/

Later on someone said that we didn't need to kill Valkyrs when the floor was here (that's one Valkyr of the course of multiple attempts that we failed to kill, and there's 3 of them each of the many waves we got). The idea at this point was pretty much that if this bug happened again then we could just leave the valkyrs and DPS on boss which made the encounter even more boring (add killing encounter for you) and in the end made P3 feel lighter on our empty stomachs. I think I heard someone saying at some point that the bug actually happened if we successfully cleared in a fast enough time frame the first wave of Valkyrs. Which proved wrong later on and on the actual kill.



Now for this kill, indeed apparently it wasn't a mechanic of the fight that this floor respawns (would be pretty retarded to have those valkyrs else or maybe they would just slow down your dps/healing) but we managed to kill every single valkyr a consecutive number of times and I'm pretty sure that with 10 attempts left we could have done it easily even without the floor respawning.

[faithsfx]

Thank you blizzard for doing the right thing.

Cheaters should be banned, and from all the exploits they have used before in the past payback has come around the corner and slapped ensidia in the face. THANK YOU blizzard.

i shall be sleeping like a baby tonight

[Crack]

This is so obviously set up that it's laughable.

I kind of feel sorry for the Ensidia fanboys.

-------

I read some of Bergg's replies (beginning of the topic and on his website) and they totally make sense and so far haven't been countered.

They either:
a) Tanked the lich king on the edge of the platform, which would be suicide (due to the val'kyrs) UNLESS YOU KNOW THE PLATFORM IS THERE TO STOP IT.
b) Tanked the Lich King in the middle, and then the question arises. WHY did they bomb the outer part of the platform.

They show no proof that they dps'ed the Val'kyrs. There are gaps and inconsistencies in their combat logs. They had several of their guild members drop professions and powerlevel engineering on the same day they did the lich king.

Ensidia isn't stupid. They knew they were doing the wrong thing.

Blizzard isn't stupid either, if they turn to banning they must have some solid evidence.

If this all adds up and it turns out Ensidia knowingly and purposefully exploited on the Lich King encounter, then IMO a 3 day ban is going soft on them.

Say what you want about blizzard not fully testing. If you know how much code goes into a fight like that, and how many different variables affect such a fight (hint: several hundreds of thousands, if not millions). You know they can't forsee everything. Especially on a fight that isn't publicly tested (because they can't do that for obvious reasons).

Not gonna say if the ban is deserved or not at the moment. IMO people are innocent until proven otherwise, but so far I'm seeing a dead body and Ensidia has blood stains all over their shirts.

This

[Sneek]

i shall be sleeping like a baby tonight

this is really really really sad


I hope you wont be throwing your virginity away when your favourite guild scores a wf

[NorthernFalcon]

Let's assume for a brief moment in time that everything Ensidia claims is true.

That they didn't know the bombs were causing the platform to reform. That the bombs were part of the rogue's rotation. That no one power-levelled engineering. That the bombs weren't intentionally dropped on empty space to regenerate it.

They can still be called out on an exploit based on what they've admitted so far, but it's not the exploit everyone is accusing them off.

They noted that the regrowing platform made it such that the Val'kyr did not have to be killed. They downed Lich King in 10, so they knew that the Val'kyr were supposed to be killed. They chose not to dps the Val'kyr during the winning attempt.

Is this an exploit? Yes. Does it deserve a ban? Yes.

It isn't as serious as intentionally causing the platform to regrow by throwing bombs at empty space, but it's still exploiting, and therefore it's still an illegitimate kill.

Just to highlight: They chose not to dps the Val'kyr during the winning attempt. This can't be seen as anything other than taking advantage of a bug, even if they didn't know what caused it. Therefore, they exploited and got banned.

[Karnige]

good they knew it was an exploit. well deserved ban.

[Onomarl]

Still on Ensidia's side ... It was Blizzard's mistake to release it if it wasn't tested ... fixed and so on. When I do my Job I do it like it should be done ... if not, I get yelled at or worse ... And it's not even as close responsibility-wise as this one.

We, People who play WoW, pay Blizzard ... And at top of that they can ban people cause they used something, Blizzard was not able to repair ... cmon!!! They should apologize for not making it perfect!!! We pay, we are the customers here ... I just don't get it.

Sure, they could've been using glitches ... I don't care. I'm not much of a First Kill Freak or anything... It was the developer who made them possible ... If you don't want Glitches - Test it properly or get new employees.

I Love Blizzard <3 but this is afterall business where you must respect your customers. So First check on your own territory then pick it on customers (But even that is not acceptable and a major company like Blizz should be aware of that.)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no game is perfect. You can't blame this one on Blizzard, exploiting is using something that wasn't intended by the game developers. It's not Blizzard's decision if they use it or not, the DPS gain from using saronite bombs wouldn't change the outcome of their raid.

[Endre]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no game is perfect. You can't blame this one on Blizzard, exploiting is using something that wasn't intended by the game developers. It's not Blizzard's decision if they use it or not, the DPS gain from using saronite bombs wouldn't change the outcome of their raid.

Yes but why can't they just remove achivements and reset it for them without ban? It's not the right thing to cheat I know but Blizzard let it slip so both sides should be "judged" not just one side.