Ensidia suspended for 72 Hours

[hycing]

well who cares, they just downed him again with a bunch of alts so...

[Dpser77]

It really doesnt matter if they knew the saronite bomb was doing it or not. Seeing how they usually lead the world in first kills, they must be pretty smart and understand every boss fight to the letter. Sooo, when the Valkyr phase came up, and the ground wasnt breaking and etc, there is no doubt they knew the game mechanics were not working properly. Its complete BS if someone says they didnt know what was happening in that phase. And all these stupid analogies of ATM's or running green lights, are about completely different scenarios and have no bases. "Ignoring a game mechanic is like robbing an empty bank and getting caught", stupid. But the side to defend Ensidia, is they are a world first killing guild. And if they did know of the phase being skipped, but could not guess why, it would be bad to wait for a GM to come fix the issue, losing Ensidia time and maybe losing World first title. The ban might of been unneeded, but in no way do they deserve world first kill, cause they didnt do the entire encounter. (But if they were trying to guess what was causing the issue, a seige damaging saronite bomb, might come up in brainstorming) :P

[Katakuro]

stop trying to act like ensidia's the only one at fault here.
they were being watched and they knew it. to continue on your little court example, wouldn't you be bitchy if the police had been watching you the whole time, knew you were doing something wrong yet did NOTHING to stop you to only come after and say "hey guys, you did something wrong, here comes the banhammer".
ensuing a ticket was the way to go to avoid sanctions, but what's the point when there are admins watching you ? who is silent consents. you can't possibly swing the banhammer with the hand that had to push the red button, then call others "blatant exploiters" without looking like a blatant scrub

Yes, because undercover stings are always like that in real life, right? Hop off Ensidia's e-peen, they did NOTHING to acknowledge that it was a bug until Blizzard hotfixed it, they skipped a whole part of a fight because, "durrrrr... wut caused teh ground to rebuildz? Oh wells, stop deeps on the evil angels!" Then, when they receive a small as hell punishment, they bitch and moan like a kid who's been grounded, and you call them mature? Fuck's sake, they cried more than a newborn after receiving what was coming.

From what I understand is, the GMs are not allowed to interfere in any way, shape, or form with anyones game if there is no ticket in, even if they are watching them go for world first. Your pixelated gods have fallen and finally been caught, no word to Blizzard on a bug popping up in their game, and they go on to say they got world first, then come clean when it's been fixed, they got what they deserved, and then a guild who came in AFTER the floor rebuilding fix gets a true clean first kill on him.

Bugs can happen, and Ensidia would, and should know, that even changing one line of code can cause other things to happen, ffs look at some of the previous patches where they changed something on one class, and then something on another class stopped working right.

Also, you should take your own advice, stop acting like Ensidia isn't at ANY fault here.

But the side to defend Ensidia, is they are a world first killing guild. And if they did know of the phase being skipped, but could not guess why, it would be bad to wait for a GM to come fix the issue, losing Ensidia time and maybe losing World first title.

The bug didn't cause the phase to be skipped, it rebuilt the floors in the phase, so when the Val'Kyr's did come to kill people, because Ensidia saw the floor, they told the raid, "skip the Val'Kyr's, the people will land on the platform anyway, keep dps on Arthas."

[sowwucks]

If every main has an alt of their own class you're doubling the attempts per week with the optimal raid group.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, that is a level of min/maxing I just cannot comprehend.

[Deleted]

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, that is a level of min/maxing I just cannot comprehend.

I remember seeing a screenie of a player on a taiwanese server, with 10 level 80 female draenei holy pallies, all at least badge geared.

That, my friend, is insane.

[Kazuku65]

dead horse is dead, let this go already....

[Memory]

but in no way do they deserve world first kill

Yet they killed him World first.

Let's try to see what we mean here. Those people who think Blizzard was rightful, will consider Paragon's as World First, with implicitly reserving to Blizzard the right to decide the rules also outside of programming/coding matters.

Those people who think Blizzard wasn't rightful, will just consider that, bugged or not, banned or not, Ensidia was the first guild world wide to kill the Lich King (25 man, normal mode) on live servers (or just overall, since he wasn't on PTR).

Who was first then? Tricky question, uh? And no way I'm with Blizzard in this case, for a lot of good reasons, don't care there's Ensidia or some scrub guild on the other side.

I know that mmo-champion's news say 'Paragon World First' and truth for many people is what happens on mass media, but well.

[charrge]

its not like ensidias never gotten a world first before..theyre the cream of the crop theyd of gotten it anyways


but...they got pwnt

[koimagheul]

Let's try to see what we mean here. Those people who think Blizzard was rightful, will consider Paragon's as World First, with implicitly reserving to Blizzard the right to decide the rules also outside of programming/coding matters.

Those people who think Blizzard wasn't rightful, will just consider that, bugged or not, banned or not, Ensidia was the first guild world wide to kill the Lich King (25 man, normal mode) on live servers (or just overall, since he wasn't on PTR).

none of the sides are clean on this. the only "right" thing blizzard did was to take actions against people who can't deny their exploit. yet there's so many failures on blizzard side that you can seriously question their "rightfulness" on this case.

Who was first then? Tricky question, uh?

not tricky in any way. the one true world first is the legit world first. ensidia's kill is not legit. paragon's is. end of the story.

[Memory]

not tricky in any way. the one true world first is the legit world first. ensidia's kill is not legit. paragon's is. end of the story.

I don't think so, I think you're not considering properly some elements which I tried to hint.

It's also down to the concept of 'legit world first', which you assume it's pacific to be Paragon's kill due to Blizzard's actions against Ensidia, but I don't think it's 'logically' pacific.

I would also recall something that has already been pointed out: in the moment an action X produces an effect Y in the game, it's part of the game mechanics, redardless of the fact it was intended by the developer. If it's intended or not, it's an external consideration that doesn't rest on game mechanics themsevles.
It would be different if someone would hack the server or hack the MPQ with procuring an advantage in the game, because it only would mean changing the game mechanics.

The fact that Ensidia/Nihilum could get away with other 'exploits' in the past, doesn't just prove that they got favoured, it only proves that Blizzard took time to elaborate a policy about exploits (what I mean can be clear if you think of the way jurisprudence works in the real world).
In the process of forming a firm policy, I guess it prolly matters the better means of investigation that Blizzard can now use, compared to the past. Nevertheless, the crescent attention of the world towards first kills and possible exploits.

In the end, the current way we intend an exploit is just a concept, which comes from some kind of jurisdiction performed by Blizzard.
And some times their evaluation is so restrictive (and hardly sharable) to punish even creative use of game mechanics (it's not this case). Can't recall any episode of this kind, at moment, but I hope you know what I mean.

In the end, what do we have? We have a concept of 'exploit' and we have actions that Blizzard takes against people that exploit (according to that concept).

At this point, my conclusions are very simple:
1. Blizzard should never take actions against someone who only stayed within game mechanics: expecting players to evaluate developers' intention and punishing the wrong evaluation is an abomination for game design.
2. The fact that Blizzard takes actions against an elaborated concept of exploit, doesn't change another fact, i.e. that Ensidia killed the Lich King 25M World First. 'Exploited' or not, banned or not.

From this point of view, there isn't any reason to make a fuzz about 'losing' the world first, because none lost anything. Kinda legitimate to make a fuzz about being banned, tho.


My only doubt is if it's worth to make such strict and philosophical argument around a silly first kill in a game. And I know many players won't consider nor understand this kind of reasoning. I find it interesting for many reasons, tho, beyond the fact it's just a game.

[Deleted]

I would also recall something that has already been pointed out: in the moment an action X produces an effect Y in the game, it's part of the game mechanics, redardless of the fact it was intended by the developer. If it's intended or not, it's an external consideration that doesn't rest on game mechanics themsevles.
It would different if someone would hack the server or hack the MPQ with procuring an advantage in the game, because it only would mean changing the game mechanics.

Then way Exodus was banned for their World First, according to your logic? Remember, Ensidia were the ones that called Exodus "cheaters".

Blizzard is simply showing fair play, if Exodus got banned, then Ensidia gets banned to. At least Ensidia escapes with a 3 days ban.

[Memory]

Then way Exodus was banned for their World First, according to your logic? Remember, Ensidia were the ones that called Exodus "cheaters".

Blizzard is simply showing fair play, if Exodus got banned, then Ensidia gets banned to. At least Ensidia escapes with a 3 days ban.

In Exodus' case the 'hole' in game mechanics regarded a major element of the game, up to making the fight itself trivial. While 'utilizing' such 'hole' can have a major impact in game's economy than minor bugs, I wouldn't treat it any different as regards penalties. It's still under Blizzard's responsibility and I still think it's an abomination for game design to punish a guild or a player because of 'wrong consideration of developer's intentions'.
What they did can be fair or not (surely any other guild could do it, those game mechanics were operative for everyone), but I would doubt the concept of 'fair' itself. Fair against the other players? They used a mean that everyone else could use. Fair against the AI? Those mechanics were coded in the AI. When you play a videogame, nothing else should matter. Maybe it was unfair towards roleplaying
In the end, it was not fair nor unfair, it was just bad coding of Blizzard.

Let's consider it as regards commercial policy, to understand what I mean.

First case:
Ensidia kills a boss with using non intended game mechanics that therefore get instantly hot-fixed. The community gets angry at Blizzard for releasing bugged bosses that allow some guilds to kill 'em first under circumstances that are perceived as unlegit (since they're shortly fixed).

Second case:
Ensidia kills a boss with using non intended game mechanics that therefore get instantly hot-fixed. Blizzard bans Ensidia with trying to restore the pristine conditions, with meaning nobody killed the Lich King yet and everyone can now compete under the same, fair, conditions. Therefore, everyone has the impression to play in a 'fair' game, does not get angry at Blizzard, does not quit the game because it's buggy and - if anything - gets angry at Ensidia for being unfair and whatnot.

Which one of such ways will Blizzard try to second?

In the end, in my opinion we don't have an 'unfair game' in the first case and a 'fair game' in the second case. We just have a bugged game that Blizzard manages to cover in the second case with sacrificing Ensidia to the good of game (and economy).

[koimagheul]

ensidia was wrong to exploit this mechanic and blizzard was right to blame them, there's no denying that fact.
yet, the more we know about this bug the more it adds to blizzard's inconsistency.
seems problems with saronite bombs and siege damage vulnerable structures have been runing here and there since the beginning of WotLK.
the very presence of a bug involving that buggy mechanic in the public release of what is meant to be the last fight of this expansion tells everything there is to know about this case.

[Memory]

I would add some more thoughts about the way we follow to consider such 'exploits' as 'unfair'.

A videogame is based on a complex of rules. Our actions operate under such system of rules. This system has to be coherent to realize our 'immersion'. 'Coherent' means we can't expressly think that we're adopting some kinda odd action because the videgame is coded to require it. Our adhesion to the rules must always be implicit or the immersion will break up. We must be on the impression we can always do all we want. It's the difference between good game design and bad game design.
Good game design, then, won't have 'once good' rules. For example the lighter in Residente Evil 2 There's a lot of stuff you might wanna burn in the game, but you get to use it only once, altho you got it in your bag from the very beginning. It's kinda odd, and yet it's working as intended. (Be aware: by no meaning I'm saying that Resident Evil 2 is a bad game with a bad game design overall).

Then guess what kind of bad effect we have when the 'once good' rule is in the game because of an error during developing. For example what Exodus did. That's an 'once good' rule that breaks immersion and coherence. Exodus explicitly played with game mechanics, which has nothing to do with implicitly adopting the 'always good' rules.
That's why Blizzard corrects the 'bugs'. It's the absolutely obvious difference between bad and good game design.
Therefore the only guilds that could use it look as if they did something unfair (since none can take advantages of it anymore).

This theoretic speech isn't just pointless and self-awarding, since what I said should already be obvious to anyone who played enough videogames. If I took the time to explain it, it's to make clear that we can evaluate Exodus' 'exploits' only under cathegories that have NOTHING on earth to do with fair/unfair. It has only to do with bad/good game design. And it concerns only Blizzard. And none on earth should be banned for that. But I said it long enough, I just hope someone is interested on my point of view ;D
Trying to judge Exodus (or Ensidia) under fair/unfair cathegories sounds very funny to me and goes under the try to assimilate WoW to a sport by all possible meanings. But some rules just don't fit unless we force 'em.

On a side note, I can't recall how many times my guild (and maaany other guilds in the world) exploited the same mechanics to kill Bloodlord Mandokir in Zul'Gurub, good we never got banned

[Saq]

1337 comments, nuff said.

[Megapeenor]

In the end, in my opinion we don't have an 'unfair game' in the first case and a 'fair game' in the second case. We just have a bugged game that Blizzard manages to cover in the second case with sacrificing Ensidia to the good of game (and economy).

You sir, are one of the biggest brown noses I've ever seen - a complete retard. What makes you defend ensidia like they were some kind of higher creatures of love, loyalty and peace, knights of justice? Blizzard has stated many times that using exploits is a bad thing, and they don't want anyone to take advance of it.

Games are and always will be bugged. Life is not fair.

And I'm definetly not defending blizzard ._. This is called common sense.

[Memory]

You sir, are one of the biggest brown noses I've ever seen - a complete retard. What makes you defend ensidia like they were some kind of higher creatures of love, loyalty and peace, knights of justice? Blizzard has stated many times that using exploits is a bad thing, and they don't want anyone to take advance of it.

Your absolute lack of arguments (made of insulting the interlocutor and overturning his reasoning) qualifies your post for what it is, without the need of an answer.
And that's regardless of the fact that my opinion on the topic might be good or bad.

[Megapeenor]

Your absolute lack of arguments (made of insulting the interlocutor and overturning his reasoning) qualifies your post for what it is, without the need of an answer.
And that's regardless of the fact that my opinion on the topic might be good or bad.

That's because THERE IS NO NEED FOR ARGUMENTS. This whole thing is so completely 100% clear, no need for reasoning.

[Memory]

I will add something else since you're so much interested

Also if we wanna introduce an external rule of evaluation and judge a guild for exploiting, we can't treat on the same extent a guild that consciously exploits some game mechanics to produce a consequent effect (for example mind controlling a Tempest-Smith for speed-killing Void Reaver, since the cause-effect connection is absolutely under player's control) and a guild that produces a side and not self-evident effect with a regular DPS rotation (i.e. Ensidia with the Lich King), with the assumption they couldn't know not (cuz they're top players and they read every string of combat log).
This is a basic, self-evident difference (well known to legal systems), but Blizzard ignores it, if you look at the way they indiscriminately punish different kinds of exploits.

The <they couldn't know not> argument is so largely used in this topic... It's still ok. Other thing is an authority that founds a penalty on it.

On the other hand, Blizzard itself has problems to define what an exploit is and what legitimates to punish for it.
I'll copy/paste a blue post from two years ago, about Void Reaver exploit:

Use of this issue in this fashion is considered an exploit and I strongly discourage you from using it in order to avoid any repercussions on your account.

(source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....eNo=1&sid=1#11)

Well, that's as funny as if law would say: Killing someone is considered a crime and I strongly discourage you from doing it in order to avoid any repercussions on your rights.

I promise I'll stop now... maybe. It's not funny anymore anyway, what had to be said has been said.

[Xanwryn]

Your absolute lack of arguments (made of insulting the interlocutor and overturning his reasoning) qualifies your post for what it is, without the need of an answer.
And that's regardless of the fact that my opinion on the topic might be good or bad.

TL;DR: Blizzard are NOT perfect, they are still human, and like all of humanity, they make mistakes. Just like you and me, Blizzard make mistakes, they miss a few bugs or two. If this were a perfect world there would be no bugs at all, because bugs are never intentional (and it's not a bug if it's "working as intended"). But unfortunately for those programmers, this ISN'T a perfect world and bugs happen. Internal and even public testing only goes so far to prevent them, even the minor graphical bug will get through even the most experienced of coders.

His reasoning was quite clear, actually. He stated that "games are and always will be bugged." and that is the underlying argument. Whilst he didn't have to insult you that is completely beside the point, the argument is there, it's your own choice to ignore it.

I've already made a lot of comments that argue the members of Ensidia's logic and reasoning over on their own website, I even got banned and my messages deleted because of those arguments and my opinions (many of which were written in a sarcastic manner to promote a non-serious attitude, all-the-while still issuing my arguments against their own).

The fact of the matter is that it's not Blizzard's fault that Ensidia exploited a bug. Muqq, as well as a few others, admitted to knowing something was wrong with the encounter when the floor started repairing itself, instead of stopping and reporting the bug immediately they decided to continue on for their chance at a world-first, a non-tangible reward that doesn't even offer an achievement anymore, let alone anything of physical worth. I will believe that they didn't know it was the Saronite Bombs, but that will never change the fact they didn't stop (and, as said, they have acknowledged that something WAS indeed wrong) and that is most likely why Blizzard banned them in the first place. We will never know more than that because Blizzard enforces a rather strict policy of not giving us much information on bans and Ensidia won't tell us because that could make them look worse than they already do.

Those who blame Blizzard and argue that the fault should lay squarely on Blizzard's shoulders are extremely ignorant, just as Ensidia are for making remarks such as saying they are the reason these bugs are found and that no other guild would find them (and believe me, they were arrogant enough to make such elitist remarks). It's not Blizzard's fault that a bug happens, bugs will ALWAYS happen in EVERY SINGLE SOFTWARE EVER CREATED. To those uninitiated, look up what a "software bug" actually is first, gather as much fasts as you can and THEN make your arguments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug

Even in a program with only a few lines of code will their be a chance of bugs happening, the difference with something along the lines of a video game is that these types of software literally have hundreds of thousands of lines of code and it is an extremely difficult and time-consuming process to fix them all (in fact, some games have bugs that aren't fixed at all because they don't affect the gameplay and would be too time-consuming to isolate and fix). Every single raid boss had at least one bug, just one. Arthas has only one that is currently known, and it's NOT Blizzard's internal testing to blame for it's existence.

You could have a group of a thousand testers who test a game for many years, who think they've found all the bugs and fixed them. They then go ahead and get the game published and sold and upon it's release find that many players have reported thousands of bugs, bugs they never even found when they did their own internal testing. Why? Because a gamers mindset is a lot different from a developers, and every gamer has their own way of playing. For example, there's a bug in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind that hasn't been fixed, what happens is that in particular areas, if you jump in certain areas you will actually fall threw the map (or to the ground level/water below if you're above ground level). This hasn't been fixed but it doesn't cause a problem if you don't jump in that particular spot, and not every gamer is going to about jumping around the game like a crazy buffoon, are they?

See my point yet? Read the tl;dr if you're still stumped.