That's because THERE IS NO NEED FOR ARGUMENTS. This whole thing is so completely 100% clear, no need for reasoning.Originally Posted by Memory
That's because THERE IS NO NEED FOR ARGUMENTS. This whole thing is so completely 100% clear, no need for reasoning.Originally Posted by Memory
I will add something else since you're so much interested
Also if we wanna introduce an external rule of evaluation and judge a guild for exploiting, we can't treat on the same extent a guild that consciously exploits some game mechanics to produce a consequent effect (for example mind controlling a Tempest-Smith for speed-killing Void Reaver, since the cause-effect connection is absolutely under player's control) and a guild that produces a side and not self-evident effect with a regular DPS rotation (i.e. Ensidia with the Lich King), with the assumption they couldn't know not (cuz they're top players and they read every string of combat log).
This is a basic, self-evident difference (well known to legal systems), but Blizzard ignores it, if you look at the way they indiscriminately punish different kinds of exploits.
The <they couldn't know not> argument is so largely used in this topic... It's still ok. Other thing is an authority that founds a penalty on it.
On the other hand, Blizzard itself has problems to define what an exploit is and what legitimates to punish for it.
I'll copy/paste a blue post from two years ago, about Void Reaver exploit:
(source: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....eNo=1&sid=1#11)Use of this issue in this fashion is considered an exploit and I strongly discourage you from using it in order to avoid any repercussions on your account.
Well, that's as funny as if law would say: Killing someone is considered a crime and I strongly discourage you from doing it in order to avoid any repercussions on your rights.
I promise I'll stop now... maybe. It's not funny anymore anyway, what had to be said has been said.
TL;DR: Blizzard are NOT perfect, they are still human, and like all of humanity, they make mistakes. Just like you and me, Blizzard make mistakes, they miss a few bugs or two. If this were a perfect world there would be no bugs at all, because bugs are never intentional (and it's not a bug if it's "working as intended"). But unfortunately for those programmers, this ISN'T a perfect world and bugs happen. Internal and even public testing only goes so far to prevent them, even the minor graphical bug will get through even the most experienced of coders.Originally Posted by Memory
His reasoning was quite clear, actually. He stated that "games are and always will be bugged." and that is the underlying argument. Whilst he didn't have to insult you that is completely beside the point, the argument is there, it's your own choice to ignore it.
I've already made a lot of comments that argue the members of Ensidia's logic and reasoning over on their own website, I even got banned and my messages deleted because of those arguments and my opinions (many of which were written in a sarcastic manner to promote a non-serious attitude, all-the-while still issuing my arguments against their own).
The fact of the matter is that it's not Blizzard's fault that Ensidia exploited a bug. Muqq, as well as a few others, admitted to knowing something was wrong with the encounter when the floor started repairing itself, instead of stopping and reporting the bug immediately they decided to continue on for their chance at a world-first, a non-tangible reward that doesn't even offer an achievement anymore, let alone anything of physical worth. I will believe that they didn't know it was the Saronite Bombs, but that will never change the fact they didn't stop (and, as said, they have acknowledged that something WAS indeed wrong) and that is most likely why Blizzard banned them in the first place. We will never know more than that because Blizzard enforces a rather strict policy of not giving us much information on bans and Ensidia won't tell us because that could make them look worse than they already do.
Those who blame Blizzard and argue that the fault should lay squarely on Blizzard's shoulders are extremely ignorant, just as Ensidia are for making remarks such as saying they are the reason these bugs are found and that no other guild would find them (and believe me, they were arrogant enough to make such elitist remarks). It's not Blizzard's fault that a bug happens, bugs will ALWAYS happen in EVERY SINGLE SOFTWARE EVER CREATED. To those uninitiated, look up what a "software bug" actually is first, gather as much fasts as you can and THEN make your arguments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug
Even in a program with only a few lines of code will their be a chance of bugs happening, the difference with something along the lines of a video game is that these types of software literally have hundreds of thousands of lines of code and it is an extremely difficult and time-consuming process to fix them all (in fact, some games have bugs that aren't fixed at all because they don't affect the gameplay and would be too time-consuming to isolate and fix). Every single raid boss had at least one bug, just one. Arthas has only one that is currently known, and it's NOT Blizzard's internal testing to blame for it's existence.
You could have a group of a thousand testers who test a game for many years, who think they've found all the bugs and fixed them. They then go ahead and get the game published and sold and upon it's release find that many players have reported thousands of bugs, bugs they never even found when they did their own internal testing. Why? Because a gamers mindset is a lot different from a developers, and every gamer has their own way of playing. For example, there's a bug in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind that hasn't been fixed, what happens is that in particular areas, if you jump in certain areas you will actually fall threw the map (or to the ground level/water below if you're above ground level). This hasn't been fixed but it doesn't cause a problem if you don't jump in that particular spot, and not every gamer is going to about jumping around the game like a crazy buffoon, are they?
See my point yet? Read the tl;dr if you're still stumped.
None doubts that. I never said: Blizzard can't ban Ensidia cuz it's their blame if the game is full of bugs cuz they suck at coding. From your whole of facts, I just don't derive the following conclusions:Originally Posted by Xanwryn
1. Paragon killed the LK (25M normal) world first; and
2. Blizzard is right to indiscriminately ban players that step on a bug.
The point is exactly this: since bugs will *always* be in the game, Blizzard doesn't have any other way to discourage people, than taking external actions against them. But it doesn't make the measures any more rightful, in my opinion.
The bugs will always be there, yes, and if anyone steps on them, that's a good reason to correct 'em, nothing else.
Thanks for taking the time to extensively reply, tho, altho I think we look at it from a different perspective.
This isn't an indiscriminate ban though. This was a huge bypass of encounter mechanics making the fight incredibly easier. Ensidia chose to ignore the Valks and instead burn down the Lich King. They chose to do this.Originally Posted by Memory
Now, if, when the floors rebuilt themselves, they had said, "Don't chance it, keep fighting like normal: kill the Valks," despite knowing they didn't have to, and Blizzard had banned them, everyone would be in agreement that Blizz was wrong.
If, when the floors rebuilt, they had stopped completely and yelled for Blizz to come fix it, everyone would be in agreement that they would be heroes, sacrificing a World First Kill chance to maintain their integrity.
But they chose to ignore an important encounter mechanic to their advantage, and got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. This was far from an indiscriminate ban. They cheated, got caught, the bug is fixed, and Paragon did the fight right.
Ensidia didn't just step on the bug. They stepped on it, nursed it back to minimal health, and made it their slave for saving it's life. Good thing Animal Control was there to slap the cuffs on them for mistreatment, but the poor bug was so weak and in pain, it had to be put down. (That analogy went a little far didn't it... :P)
Semantics. A bug is a bug, and people have been exploiting them to kill bosses for WoW's entire lifespan.Originally Posted by Hessie
Blizzard is just playing the PR game with this one, which I find despicable. It's called precedent, they didn't ban people for any of the previous World Firsts (Vashj???) or even abusing mechanics for not-first kills of other bosses, they shouldn't ban anyone for these bugs now.
It's their mistake, they should be the ones fixing it, not punishing others for their mistakes. That's just childish, irregardless of how much easier it made the "fight."
It's a video game, there aren't any rules beyond what the game allows you to do. If the game allows you to respawn the lower platform, DO IT. This is just a computer program FFS, not some mythical medieval duel where your "honor" is at stake.
It IS Blizzard's fault for not testing their code, they wanted to "surprise" everyone with this encounter, and it still failed to last more than a day (2 days after hotfix). A pretty poor return for gambling on being able to QC the fight themselves (which they've NEVER gotten right).
Remember C'thun World First Kill?
They (Ensidia), formerly known as "Nihilum" used the "Disgusting Oozeling" (Pet you can find on Oozling's around the World) to make the C'thun kill very easy!
The Disgusting Ooziling Pet gives you a Debuff wich could, if you macro'd the whole thing, be used to fill your Debuffs up to the maximum. This way they did not got the Debuff inside of C'thun and could easy stay in there forever, making it very easy to weaking the C'thun encounter and make im attackable.
This is like 3-4 years ago and they USED exploited ingame mechanics back then, too.
So im 100% sure, this 72ban is well deserved.
This made me Lol.
Kinda sad that there's a 90 page thread fighting over this (mostly anyway).
Fair or not, it's only 72hrs and they can just deal with it. Bugs are bugs and will always be here in some form or another in every program in existence so saying it's Blizz's fault is just a fanboi scapegoat tactic. Knowingly replicating the bug during the fight or not is also irrelevant as they knew something was going wrong and decided to continue a bugged encounter. Granted it's the type of thing they've done purposely and even bragged about in the past (flower power *cough*) and received no punishment for and that may seem unbalanced, but in reality they should have been punished for any of the others that they've used as well. Blizz has just been too lenient and you guys have grown spoiled by it.
I'd hate to see what you would scream if it was still like the older days of MMO's and any kind of exploit (intentional or otherwise) would potentially net you a permanent ban (72hrs is a mere suspension and rather laughable).
There was no such thing as 'creative use of game mechanics' to excuse certain exploits within the game. If anyone had tried to use that lame excuse in early EQ a GM would have said something like "Well here's a creative use of administration tools." and just permanently banned them on the spot.
I think a lot of problems with the MMO community at large these days has sprung up from this extreme leniency policy.
You qualified it good :POriginally Posted by Rakcheral
Really? Care to point out the alleged misspell? Because I know you aren't referring to the proper spelling of a slang word...Originally Posted by Noportforyou
Now if you are, the only advice I have to offer is stick to your University of Phoenix education and impressing other kids with your grammar prowess because all you're accomplishing with me is giving me another pathetic to laugh at.
And speaking of calling people geeks, what are YOU doing on a video game forum Mr. Cool?I thought so...
Back on topic, Ensidia did what they are best at, which is cheat. And Blizz owned them for it. And I lol'd. Oh shoot, did I spell lol'd right? ;D
You guys know that by fighting for 90 pages in MMO-Champion, is not going to solve anything. Blizz will still be Blizz, and this will happen a lot more times, who knows, you can be their next victim!
The bug caused a noticeable change in the terrain when the bomb hit the platform and Ensidia knew exactly how the fight worked and looked beforehand (they downed it in 10man before 25man; they knew how the unglitched encounter went). The bombs also have to be thrown at the part of the platform that it reconstructed, which would not be anywhere near where they were tanking Arthas.Originally Posted by Rogue
Their argument that the fight would've been just as simple without the bug is ridiculous to anyone who knows what the bug specifically did. Larger platform = no need to kill the Val'kyr = MUCH more time on Arthas. Instead of losing dps on the boss for a significant portion of that phase and the chance of someone being killed and unbrezable, they could burn him the entire time.
Ensidia refused to release a video or a combat parse for the kill and, when questioned, said that they never fraps their world first attempts. That's a lie. Search youtube right now and you'll see tons of Ensidia's world first videos. Let's couple this with the fact that Ensidia doesn't have the best track record with clean kills.
Ensidia knew that they were glitching it and making the fight much easier and Blizzard doesn't like that. They have every right to not like that and give them a slap on the wrist.
I laugh my ass off knowing there's actually Enside FANS out there, lol!! Like, I can understand if you got someone on your friendlist that you like cuz they're a good tank or something, but a Fan of other WoW players? Haha, I think it's pretty normal to be a fan of sports players, I might be a fan of a couple baseball players, maybe a hockey player or two, football, but World of Warcraft players? How do you stoop that low?
You had to throw those bombs pretty accurately for them to correctly bug, they had to be placed in a certain spot, they clearly had knowledge of the Bug and continued with it. They have a history of exploiting, they're European, they're Horde, they're obviously going to find the cheapest and easiest ways to get something done. Their logs are missing the Val'kyr part, there's obviously a lot they're not telling us. Do you honestly think these foreign in fagots are gonna just come out and say "we cheated, this is how" no, they're gonna whine about it and make excuses.
That Rogue has about 7k Honor kills lifetime, what a fucking scrub.
dayle... dayle... why so sad? I can understand playing hockey or football or baseball BUT playing world of warcraft OMG how do you stoop so low? in all seriousness the world first race is a COMPETITION humans are interested by competition seeing who the better team is so what if its a game guess what most sports are only games. admiring someones athletic skills is alright if you're into that so is admiring someones quick thinking reaction skills.
Also how do you know that the bombs had to be place so accurately as you describe it were you there watching them do it and watching him place it every single time in the exact same location? no? cool.
Finally I guess that rogue could turn around and say "lol nice champion of the frozen wastes fucking scrub" but im sure hes too busy having fun with the game rather then being jelous cause you're clearly not that good.
Sorry for feeding the troll I was bored. kk now tell me I'm an ensidia fan boy or a paragon fan boy or whoever else fan boy
Originally Posted by Dayle
damn banned :'(