Ensidia suspended for 72 Hours

[Whitehatter]

they should thank their lucky stars blizz dont have a policy like the one below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwF1zGrNriI

LK was exploited wither it was on purpose or not they had all their rewards taken away and banned so y are we still goin on about it.. its now in the past, it has been hotfixed might as well move on and focus on your own raiding progress

and if they did do it on purpose one phrase comes to mind "If you cant do the time then dont do the crime" theyll just have to redo it wen they are able to log back on


peace

[Rogue]

"Hey guys, thanks for accidentally discovering this bug we somehow couldn't find before releasing our content. It's too bad you don't have the time or resources to test and pin down what was causing the bug, so we're banning you. Eat a dick."

[amielle]

Peace out, Ensidia. A well deserved ban, imo. I really dislike people like them who feign ignorance while they blatently exploit a bug.

[Mercadi]

The hypocrites on these forums sometimes is amazing. Boub posts Ensidia gets world first. It's discovered shortly thereafter there's an exploit that makes the encounter significantly easier which Ensidia used. Forums fly into a RAGE demanding that Ensidia be banned, kill revoked, etc. Then.. shockingly, Blizzard does just that. And now what? People are saying how out of line and unwarranted the ban was. You people really just astound me sometimes.

As an aside, I'm sorry for all of you moderators out there (old and new alike). I have a feeling that even with all the new manpower they added in the last few weeks, they've still been working way overtime to keep the trolling down to a minimal level. ><

I smile every time when I see someone referring to "you people" as a to homogenuous mass, all falling into one category, the one you claim to not understand

[zaphon]

The hypocrites on these forums sometimes is amazing. Boub posts Ensidia gets world first. It's discovered shortly thereafter there's an exploit that makes the encounter significantly easier which Ensidia used. Forums fly into a RAGE demanding that Ensidia be banned, kill revoked, etc. Then.. shockingly, Blizzard does just that. And now what? People are saying how out of line and unwarranted the ban was. You people really just astound me sometimes.

As an aside, I'm sorry for all of you moderators out there (old and new alike). I have a feeling that even with all the new manpower they added in the last few weeks, they've still been working way overtime to keep the trolling down to a minimal level. ><

You do realize that the Complaints will ALWAYS be the majority of any thread. No matter what the topic, etc. Complaints will always win out. It's just like reviews, people don't go some place they like, and run home to write a review, as they are happy. But if they go some place, and it's a disaster, they'll be angry, and will definitely go out of their way to write a negative review. The same is true here. So until you go through both threads and show me that all the posts are from the same people, I think you're the one who doesn't understand forums.

[mirrorzoom]

Stop arguing about the rogues and the saronite bombs w/e, it doesn't matter how they "discover" the bug. The fact is that they didn't report it, and probably used the bug to their advantage.

They don't have to figure out what caused the bug. Since they've already done 10man, it's not that hard to figure out that this platform respawning isn't intentional. What did they do? They kept going and got world first kill. Then they didn't even mention it on their world first kill that this bug existed until blizzard hotfixed it.

I don't have the time to go through the logs to see if they actually used the bug to their advantage or not. If you look at the valkyr phase, did they dps the valkyr like they are supposed to? or did they let the valkyr run away and drop the player on the edge? If it's the latter case, they definitely used the bug to their advantage, which is 100% exploitation. On that note, there's a post in page 9 here showed that the rogue didn't use any bombs in the entire valkyr phase. If that's true, the entire combat log should be voided because it's been modified. Other than the valkyrs, this bug also gives bigger space to run for defile, but that's not as big of a deal.

The bottom line is that doesn't matter who, where, how, but the bug appeared, and anyone who have done the fight somewhat on 10man can tell that it's not intentional. Ensidia didn't report the bug, kept going while using the bug to their advantage, didn't acknowledge it until blizzard hotfixed it.

That is exploiting.

[Diadatan]

Before you all assume I'm an ensidia fanboy, let me tell you now, I am not. I am a raiding member of Exodus US Ysondre.


Ensidia should not have received 3-day suspension + removal of goodies treatment. Neither should we have on Yogg-No Light.

There are two reasons why blizzard claims to be justified in suspending accounts for these situations.

(my own wording)
1. Circumvention of game mechanics to achieve unintended ease of victory.
2. Deliberate attempt to mislead in order to cover up circumventive play.


To these two claims I give you two rebuttals:

1. Game mechanics were not circumvented. The only exploit I have ever heard of that actually involved circumvention of game mechanics was the guild that edited their mpq files to fall through the floor in AQ to go straight to C'thun. That, obviously, is cheating.

However, Saronite bombs rebuilding the platform is a GAME MECHANIC. (it isn't anymore, but that just reinforces the point now doesn't it?) It was a part of the live build of the game. The fact that it makes the encounter much easier, the fact that it was unintended, those things are irrelevant. Warcraft is a computer game. 100% variable environment. Blizzard has absolute control over what can and cannot occur in the game.

I have no programming expertise and cannot speak to how difficult it is to properly code encounters to avoid situations like this, but I lay the burden of ensuring bosses are killed the way Blizzard intended, WITH BLIZZARD, not with the player. This strikes particularly strongly for an encounter that was not availible for testing on the ptr. While I agree with that decision, its obvious blizzard's internal testing of that encounter was inadequate. (one can only hope the irresponsible element in blizzard's QA apparatus were punished also.)

2. Responding to the notion of deception, this is much more simple. Guilds cannot control what their members say on forums, on ventrilo, or to blizzard, each raid member must be treated individually for this allegation. As for me, when Exodus killed Yogg 0 watcher, I never told anyone we killed it "traditionally" or "without cheating" or "without circumventing" or however you would like to describe it. However in the email I received informing me of my suspension, I was told part of the reason for the disciplinary action was because of deceptive efforts.

[bigjenk]

If you look at the amount of damage the saronite bombs did in each fight outside of the lk they did on average 30-40 percent more damage which leads me to believe a fair amount of them were not targeted on a mob and instead on the ledge or whereever the exploit was.

[Bluedevil21]

Oh, wow, really? Ensidia is allowed to post on public forums now? That's speaks.. miles.

They're called Raging Spirits, by the way. Apparently you don't know what you're talking about--which doesn't surprise me, considering you trivialized three separate aspects of the encounter by exploiting. Raging Spirits spawn during the outer platform phases, like I said. During the outer platform phases, the outer platform respawns no matter what. Again, that's not what is in question. What is in question is the outer platform spawning--via your exploit--during the Defile/Valkyr phases.

Bergg is my new hero; a Top end raider, punching back, asking questions that most of us wouldn't know unless personally doing the encounter. Glad to see more top end raiders involved; asking real questions that deserve real answers.

Bergg this bug happened totally random on a few of the tries, it didn't even happen on all tries. Personally I'm not even sure that it was Saronite that caused it. I believe it was a bug in the encounter that caused it to happen, especially since the bombs did 0.000 siege damage. To me it just looks like that wanted a reason to ban us. If it actually was the saronites then there is no way in the universe that we could possibly have known that since they only did damage to the mobs Naihiko used them on. There was no extra damage on anything else.

We got banned for raiding and that's it.

On a side note. Every end boss in the game has had at least one bug since Vanilla for the first guilds reaching it. Onyxia, Ragnaros, Nefarion, C'thun, Kel'Thuzad, Gruul, Magtheridon, Vashj, Kael'Thas, Archimonde, Illidan, Kil'Jaden and the list continue all the way up to Arthas.

Once again. Banned for raiding.

Kungen, every great leader has to one day make a decision that nobody will agree with; some will even hate him/her for it, but the bottom line is this. You knew there was a bug, & yet you continued raiding. You know just as much as any other top end raider, that the rule is "if there is a bug, stop the encounter, report, standby." That should have been the call, 4th,5th,7th,9th,11th, whatever attempt. The rogue isn't at fault, you & the other GM's of Ensidia are on the matter of the 25 players getting banned.

Now in hindsight, look at the fact that no one still hasn't downed Arthas, technically I would go on to bet that had you A) stopped the raid once a bug was known B) informed Blizzard's GM Team of the issue c) let them hotfix the issue ???? You be sitting front page with the fact that Ensidia had not only informed blizzard of a bug, but still got world first on the encounter. Instead you have a past history (unproven) of exploits & a 3-day ban basically for this: Killing a boss while a bug was in play regardless of using it or not. You weren't banned for raiding, you were banned raiding while a bug was active & actively knew it.

It doesn't stop here though, interviews, gaming expo's, future world first kills. You & anyone else in that guild will have to answer questions or make responses on this encounter. Heaven I hope you all have addon's to block whispers from peeps not on that friends list come Sunday.

As a fan of raiding in general, I'm asking next time, make the harder call & report the bug.

[TheSenator]

First off great job Ensidia!!

To Blizzard: Your butt is hurting cause they downed him first week. Its not amazing that your developers missed it. We all know its gonna happen. 3 day ban for doing there job. You call it cheating. What code book do they have? Who sold them said book? Is it up ,up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start??? I think Blizzard you missed the point in how huge this was. You goofed and instead of eating mud, you shot the messenger.

To all the people who approve of the ban: You are all the kind of sore losers who were last picked in kickball. Do not tear down the good to make yourself feel better. Its a guild like that, that allow people to get better by doing the homework for the rest of us. I can't record a strat video, they do. These are the guys who actually help Blizzard by going into the PTR as a guild and trying fights out and reporting back how it went. Shame on you haters!

[wadark]

I love all the people who blatantly DO NOT understand what programming and testing entail.

LK was never tested publicly, which means that only a handful of QA testers (depending on the size of Blizzard's QA team), got to see the encounter pre-release. Firstly, QA testers' jobs are to find bugs in a game, but that's hard to do when you don't know what you're looking for. Secondly, a QA team is a relatively small number of people working a finite amount of time. When LK goes live, you suddenly go from MAYBE a team of a few dozen, to a mass of several thousand, if not more, people playing the game.

As I've said before:
QA Testing = Playing Roulette
Public Release = Playing Roulette with all but one of the number's changed to match yours.

[tatienne]

imo ban is unjust. seeing something buggy and somehow knowing that it's something in one of the raiders main rotation is two completely different things.
tell me, how many times per day do you ask yourself: "I wonder if throwing explosives in this room will make a floor appear?"

to talk about them not filing a ticket... well.... if you live in europe you have an entire days penalty on the chance to get the first. and who in here have ever been online enough to get an answer to a ticket? are you telling me they should wait another day for their chance? and that's just for the answer, not actually the analyzing and fixing the bug which can take very long (any of you ferals heard anything about something called range?)

wipe the achieve, the loot. sure. but banning them and thus putting them waaaay behind the competition is not warranted. it's not like they created the bug.

[Jouri Carver]

i hate to say it but i think it was the wrong action, i wish the best of luck to all ensidia members involved in an appeal (can u even appeal?)
i think blizz rly need to invest in some full time testers rather than guiniepigging with high end raiders then banning them afterwards!

[Kaneiac]

First off great job Ensidia!!

To Blizzard: Your butt is hurting cause they downed him first week. Its not amazing that your developers missed it. We all know its gonna happen. 3 day ban for doing there job. You call it cheating. What code book do they have? Who sold them said book? Is it up ,up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start??? I think Blizzard you missed the point in how huge this was. You goofed and instead of eating mud, you shot the messenger.

To all the people who approve of the ban: You are all the kind of sore losers who were last picked in kickball. Do not tear down the good to make yourself feel better. Its a guild like that, that allow people to get better by doing the homework for the rest of us. I can't record a strat video, they do. These are the guys who actually help Blizzard by going into the PTR as a guild and trying fights out and reporting back how it went. Shame on you haters!

You're what's wrong with a lot of people. You praise and embrace the concept of using unfair advantages for personal gain. It's just a game, yes, but if people don't even have honor or respect here, where do you think that shows?

"Sore losers who were last picked in kickball" analogy doesn't even make sense, either...I get the concept, but it has no bearing on the situation, you moron.

People were congratulating Ensidia and were happy with them. UNTIL everyone learned they abused the game for gain. We're not sore losers. We just don't like to see people get away with murder, especially since Ensidia likes to claim the moral high-ground on situations like this.

This is all people needed to confirm it: they're good players, but they're absolute trash.

Ban may not have been necessary, but stripping them of LK achievements is COMPLETELY warranted.

Let them do the fight the way it's intended now, like everyone else has to.

[jst1998]

Ensidia has all my sympathy on this one. The 3 day suspension is not justified. If anything, Blizzard should apoligize to Ensidia for wasting their time.

All that is needed here is to a) take away the achievement for the kill and the loot and b) reset the attempt counter to give Ensidia an opportunity to kill him again this week, after the bug is fixed.

Blizzard, that was a pretty low move. We should all support Ensidia and let Blizzard know that the screwed up this time. Not just with the bug, but with their reaction to Ensidia's kill.

[KhameleonN]

LMAO @ people getting all raged about some people you don't know getting 72 HOUR BAN who gives a shit.

also, did you really expect them to stop the raid and file a ticket? AHAHAHA do you know how long it takes to get a ticket response?

[sicness]

You're what's wrong with a lot of people. You praise and embrace the concept of using unfair advantages for personal gain. It's just a game, yes, but if people don't even have honor or respect here, where do you think that shows?

"Sore losers who were last picked in kickball" analogy doesn't even make sense, either...I get the concept, but it has no bearing on the situation, you moron.

People were congratulating Ensidia and were happy with them. UNTIL everyone learned they abused the game for gain. We're not sore losers. We just don't like to see people get away with murder, especially since Ensidia likes to claim the moral high-ground on situations like this.

This is all people needed to confirm it: they're good players, but they're absolute trash.

Ban may not have been necessary, but stripping them of LK achievements is COMPLETELY warranted.

Let them do the fight the way it's intended now, like everyone else has to.

You think you're any better than the guys who praise Ensidia regardless of what they may or not do? You, like everyone else here, are completely assuming you know what happened and what they did, but just like everyone else here you really don't have any clue.

Again I say, it's amazing the bias people have and completely ignore it when voicing their opinion on this matter when all the facts are obviously not available to us making it impossible to make any real assumption as to what happened.

[Cronnix]

lol, why would rogue use those lame grenades on bosses at all? They do 5k damage during 1 encounter.. Looks like they just used it through whole dungeon to later have an excuse for the exploit if they are busted.

[Sauveur]

First off great job Ensidia!!

To Blizzard: Your butt is hurting cause they downed him first week. Its not amazing that your developers missed it. We all know its gonna happen. 3 day ban for doing there job. You call it cheating. What code book do they have? Who sold them said book? Is it up ,up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start??? I think Blizzard you missed the point in how huge this was. You goofed and instead of eating mud, you shot the messenger.

To all the people who approve of the ban: You are all the kind of sore losers who were last picked in kickball. Do not tear down the good to make yourself feel better. Its a guild like that, that allow people to get better by doing the homework for the rest of us. I can't record a strat video, they do. These are the guys who actually help Blizzard by going into the PTR as a guild and trying fights out and reporting back how it went. Shame on you haters!

Come on mods, I just got off a 3 day ban for being a lot less ridiculous than this.

[Zraal *Yes, ima DK*]

Ensidia has all my sympathy on this one. The 3 day suspension is not justified. If anything, Blizzard should apoligize to Ensidia for wasting their time.

All that is needed here is to a) take away the achievement for the kill and the loot and b) reset the attempt counter to give Ensidia an opportunity to kill him again this week, after the bug is fixed.

Blizzard, that was a pretty low move. We should all support Ensidia and let Blizzard know that the screwed up this time. Not just with the bug, but with their reaction to Ensidia's kill.

Seconded