Lich King US First Kill, Tanking Changes

[Emzky]

That's not true. They base your skill off of your GS now. MaxHP was your skill in BC.

Are you playing a tank? MaxHp is still the thing.

[alt]

As someone with both a warrior and DK tank I really don't see a problem with this ability. I understand I'm going to be slamed by the trolls for saying that. But abilities like this are what makes the tanking classes different, they all have their "Panic Buttons". And if you really feel that way about it, re-roll and stop complaining about it.

Disagree, panic buttons should be literal buttons, a button you have to press. Yes, it homogenizes the classes a little bit but they can still do all sorts of different stuff from lowering damage, increasing dodge/parry, lowering magical/physical damage only, increasing health, an instant heal or even an AD that you have to press that's only effective for the next X seconds.

[Rushro]

Did anyone else notice the nice big spoiler in the middle of the screen shot for those who didn't watch the Lich King Death Cinematic?

[minnerva]

Disagree, panic buttons should be literal buttons, a button you have to press. Yes, it homogenizes the classes a little bit but they can still do all sorts of different stuff from lowering damage, increasing dodge/parry, lowering magical/physical damage only, increasing health, an instant heal or even an AD that you have to press that's only effective for the next X seconds.

actually if you were trying to defend blizzard, blizzard would be picking up a metal pipe and would be getting ready to hit you on the back of the head. blizzard made AD like that to prevent paladins from shield walling at any time they wanted.

Lay on hands = forberance
Divine protection aka Shield wall = forberance
AD = Forberance mechanic

wait, didn't forberance disallowed you from using any of the others? yea genius they made AD as a "oh AD procced, good luck trying to shield wall"

then again you are up to something. lets make warriors not be able to Last stand until 2 minutes after they shield walled. and that is if they spec into lowering down the forberance

[kinematik]

Grats to Vodka.

In response to all this arguing over pally tanks being OP from Ardent Defender - which top end raiding guilds who have killed the Lich King or are close to it have NOT used pally as main tank to do so? That is the question.

[Doddilus]

Yea we have the op life saving ardent defender. We also have forbearance. We can use one cooldown every two minutes while all other tanks can chain their cooldowns or even pop them all at once. Forbearance can leave you with your pants down.

You take away AD then you must take a way forbearance as well

[Reo]

Since WAR and DK tanks have been getting reworked and somewhat buffed, why not add a Sunder Armor effect to pallies HoR... its no diffrent that war tanks stacking and wont make a huge change just make the tanking more even.

[Lokigar]

DKs got a health buff, because they do not use a shield, unlike warriora/pallies. Also this nerf to prot pallies can probably be blamed partway because of PvP, how fair is it for some res'ed out prot pally to walk into arena/bgs with 47k+ hp unbuffed?

[Jozy]

16 pages. After going through 16 pages, I'd like to share my point of view.

First off, TobiasX, stop posting. Clearly you don't understand prot paladins too much.

I've played a warrior tank since vanilla, and switched to paladin tank 3 months ago.

I'm fine with whatever nerfs they throw at prot paladins, as long as they don't entirely gimp us. LoH? Take it. 4% stam? Take it. AD becoming active? Do it if you want, but in return give us something reasonable.

Things I've encountered: During ToGc FC, as a prot paladin, I couldn't do anything useful, dispels? We got disc priest, can't kite/taunt at all, can't lock out healers like prot war. I went ret to help with the dps.. BOP was needless to say during the fight of course.

I can't remember what else I wanted to post but

TLDR: Paladins and warriors are two different classes, I've played both. Don't compare them, don't QQ, just move on.

[drakonblayde]

I know this response is a bit late but...

If the tank has 10k hp, and the boss hits him for 15k, he will die.

If the tank has 10k hp normally, pops LS for 30% more health, and the boss hits him for 15k he will still die. 10k * 1.3 = 13k < 15k

...and actually your poorly though out example very well illustrates why AD is fucking broken.

If you're sending a tank with 10k against a boss that hits for 15k, you're an idiot.

If you're not, then you're still an idiot, because Last Stand increases your HP by 30% of your MAXIMUM health.

So let's work with some realistic numbers -

If your tank has 10k left (out of 30k) and the boss smacks him for 15k, he will die.

If your tank has 10k left (out of 30k) and pops Last Stand and the boss hits him for 15k, he will live (10,000 + (30,000 * .3)) = 19,000 > 15k.

But let's play with your example a little bit more.

Warrior with 10k max hp goes up against Boss and pops last stand, boss pops him for 15k and he dies.

Paladin with 10k max hp goes up against Boss, boss pops him for 15k, and he lives, with 3k hp. Healers manage to heal him to full before the boss hits him again, so he's back to 10k. Boss hits him for 15k again. Paladin dies.

So what's the net result? It's still a wipe because you were retarded enough to send a pair of undergeared tanks against a boss who's average hit is 50% more than they have health. The paladin was able to extend the wipe by a length of one swing timer.

Here's the reality - for all of those who are complaining that AD saves the occasional wipe, you're ignoring the fact that Last Stand (which has been around alot longer) has the exact same potential. I played a Warrior tank for about 3 years raiding high end content, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Last Stand saved my behind more than once, and enabled some really tight boss kills. Of course none of that ever gets mentioned, no no, paladins are evil and must be nerfed because AD prevents wipes!

Get real. AD is just Last Stand on autopilot, and not having the flexibility of when it goes off can actually suck a bit. The only *real* advantage AD has is that it gives you a bit of a hedge against healers which are lagging, nodded off to sleep, or are busy playing with one hand.

I will grant that AD may be a little more of a pain in the ass for pvp (though again, not being able to choose when it pops has it's disadvantages... a Warrior has the ability to pop Last Stand to stay out of execute range, a paladin has no choice but to take shots from the 'FINISH HIM' moves before his ability kicks in), but in terms of PvE? It's pathetic whining.

[Lazoric]

I say the only way to settle AD is to make spirit guardian share the same debuff. Then all healers and tanks can whine :P

[anyaka21]

Blizzard hates tanks. Pally's specifically.

Tanks are generally your most skilled players, which means we dont come on boards like this one and QQ (like this) endlessly. The result? They don't care if they nerf us because the result is minimal. DPS have no problem trolling trade for "40k hp unbuffed" tanks for whatever reason (I have 36K unbuffed and have tanked ICC10 with no problem at all.) Then, when the tank isn't geared to the teeth everyone is quick to blame them, not stopping to consider that they got all of their i264 gear and the like because nothing dropped for the tank.

Perfect examples of this: Name one Legendary tank weapon in the game. Or one Legendary Shield (that can be used outside of TK)? Or how about the fact that there are only roughly 6 tanking shields in the entire WOTLK expansion? Or how about the fact that we are the ONLY spec that has no Quel'Dalar? Or that there are only 2 or 3 upgrades for Rimefang? Hey Blizzard, it doesn't really benefit me to have Rimefang's Claw if every tank you see has one (or 2 if they are a DK). Whats the use in that?

To top it all off, they just took 4% of my stamina. That is about 140 stamina! I would have to get 3 or 4 upgrades (TOC or ICC) in order to account for that much stamina, and then I'd just be earning back what I just lost.

Give tanks a break Blizzard, we are the hardest working spec in the entire game.

I have a paladin tank and have done ICC - at least as an alt in a gold dkp type run, I had no issues, however, you're an idiot. Tanks aren't the most skilled, they just have to know what talents hold threat the best, be decently geared, etc...

That said though, this nerf is stupid. Paladins don't have an insane number of hit points. What they have is actually a huge amount of avoidance, especially in ICC, especially because of holy shield with adds 30% on call avoidance that, especially on boss fights is up all the time. If they wanted to nerf paladins, that would be the spot I would change. From 30% to 20%. But to change the health pool doesn't just nerf paladins, but in a way nerfs healers.

[Avido]

I can't recall a single fight in which the "save you from an attack that would have killed you" AD effect has saved us from a wipe that wasn't about to happen anyway. I only see it proc when either the healers are dead or the other tank is dead (on tank switching or cleaving fights) and it only delays the wipe. Well, it gives me more time to DI someone and save us both a repair bill, so I guess that's OP...

I would rather have another active defensive CD (besides Divine Prot) that I can choose when to use and would actually be helpful during fights. And people counting Divine Shield and BoP as "bubbles" for tanking...? Right...

This nerf to tankadins is a reaction from Blizz to the QQ from the Warrior tank PvP nerfs that affected their damage in PvE somewhat ("WTH, we got nerfed? Nerf pallies too now!!!"). Guess what, our damage also got nerfed (holy damage scaling with STR, instead of STAM) a while back because of the silly offspec protadin healers in PvP, plus they later nerfed our threat generated through Righteous Fury too.

Any time Blizz realizes that another tanking class becomes a viable alternative to warrior tanks, they get the nerf bat; because heaven forbid guilds decide to take them over warriors! They did the same to DKs a while back, and are now buffing/fixing them again when they found out they screwed them over.
Ahh, how I fondly remember the times in Pre-WotLK when tankadins where told to "GTFO, you can't tank this, go respec holy or something". /sarcasm

Man, I agree.

Been a pally since Vanilla.. even moar lawl to pallies then.. *Go holy or go home.*
Now since late-BC, when pallies finally became viable tanks, the QQ'n started.

As far as now though..

-Take the AD away, that's fine, I never use the stupid thing anyways unless I'm rollin prot-pvp.

-Nerf our stam by 4%.. okie, W/E.. it happens. Back to where we were @ the start of WoTLK

Just give us another Defensive CD. I don't think that's too much to ask for, no?


Sounds like a fair trade to me.

[Gihelle]

actually if you were trying to defend blizzard, blizzard would be picking up a metal pipe and would be getting ready to hit you on the back of the head. blizzard made AD like that to prevent paladins from shield walling at any time they wanted.

Lay on hands = forberance
Divine protection aka Shield wall = forberance
AD = Forberance mechanic

wait, didn't forberance disallowed you from using any of the others? yea genius they made AD as a "oh AD procced, good luck trying to shield wall"

then again you are up to something. lets make warriors not be able to Last stand until 2 minutes after they shield walled. and that is if they spec into lowering down the forberance

Please stop spreading misinformation. AD can and does proc while you have forbearance. It always did. It has a separate, 2 minutes cooldown if its own.
Altering facts to prove a point is a pathetic way to try to win an argument.

[Fabini]

So for everybody who thinks Bloodlust/heroism is a need buff look at vodka US first 0 shaman

We had a resto shammy, take a closer look

[Second]

We had a resto shammy, take a closer look

Man, you just displeased some fan

[Fabini]

Man, you just displeased some fan

ruh row

[selkie]

"Paper is fine, Nerf rock"~Scissors
i personally don't see a problem with AD
everybody has their panic abilities, passive or otherwise
if you don't like it, roll a pally and take use of it instead of complaining

[vilhelm1992]

The only reason i have such a huge prob with blizz just eating 2k HP away from me is the fact its all about max HP for pug leaders so because of this i could be losin my spots, i didnt generally have the highest HP to begin with but enough to be accepted...

[Olele]

GZ of clean kill !!!

GZ to Acrylic for the top1 .

Looks like Acrylic use multidoting technics like shadowpriest.Keeping full dots on the boss and doting and DSe on add with more HP .Adds with low HP not needed attention on affl lock .This fight is a great for affliction locks and shadow priests.