Lich King US First Kill, Tanking Changes

[Malevolence]

Blizzard hates tanks. Pally's specifically.

Tanks are generally your most skilled players

Suggesting your role somehow makes you skilled. Yep you're not like a total tool or anything.

[TobiasX]

The funny part is its penis's like you that whine on official wow forums and get classes nerfed so bad they become sub par and get replaced, step back and have a few moments thought of what would happend to paladins if they removed AD clearly stating they would >Never< give paladins a last stand in its place.

A class being crap without a stupidly broken talent is not an excuse to keep the stupidly broken talent. If paladins are truly incapable of tanking encounters without Ardent Defender then the class' tanking system needs completely rethinking. Ardent Defender should be removed because it was stupid to give a talent that directly prevents death to a dps class and it's even more stupid to give it to a tanking class.

At the most basic level: in the majority of encounters the tank is the character taking the most damage and if the tank dies it's a wipe. This talent directly prevents 1 wipe. Besides the version of Cheat Death available when a level 70 rogue managed to tank both Gruul and Illidan there has never been an ability or talent that did this without any player interaction beyond speccing into it.

[Valrune]

Perfect examples of this: Name one Legendary tank weapon in the game.

Thunderfury has been long considered the tank Legendary, as back in Vanilla WoW into BC even the proc made it godly as a tank weapon.


Edit: Almost forgot, Grats Vodka!

[adibandi]

Stopped reading after that, because .. well .. are you serious ? The only tanks blizzard hates are druid ones. Pally ? lol, don't make me laugh.

Stop trolling around like a 2 years old baby , if u dont know a shit about tanking , go fishing

[Vashdakari]

Blizzard hates tanks....

Welcome to tank parity, and being the premier tank class.

If you re-read what was said, they basically noticed that most of the people going into ICC are using predominantly Pally tanks, and thus they want to steer the population to be more "balanced". No it wasn't said directly, but if you look at the buff, the nerf, and their remarks, you'll see what i'm saying.

Balancing classes based on representation sucks, doesn't it.

*Oh yeah, my second "Good Jorb to Vodka!"

I like this SS better than the earlier one

[wonkeykong]

sigh i love the feeling of nearly 2k health down the drain



anyway grats to Vodka, now for the hard part :P

[Nexus2089]

A class being crap without a stupidly broken talent is not an excuse to keep the stupidly broken talent. If paladins are truly incapable of tanking encounters without Ardent Defender then the class' tanking system needs completely rethinking. Ardent Defender should be removed because it was stupid to give a talent that directly prevents death to a dps class and it's even more stupid to give it to a tanking class.

At the most basic level: in the majority of encounters the tank is the character taking the most damage and if the tank dies it's a wipe. This talent directly prevents 1 wipe. Besides the version of Cheat Death available when a level 70 rogue managed to tank both Gruul and Illidan there has never been an ability or talent that did this without any player interaction beyond speccing into it.

Omg get over it, IF ardent defender goes off your "most likely" only delaying the inevitable for a few more seconds, I would much rather be able to plan when i wanted that extra health then never being able to move it


There's nothing wrong with ardent defender

[Chri478n]

Gratz Vodka ;D

[tillmanspeanuts]

I have to wonder, if it were Warriors who were in the position of Paladins in ICC right now would this nerf be happening to them? I guess Tankadins dont QQ enough about trivial crap like DPS to really warrant being spared the nerf bat at the slightest sign of viability.

Just remember Warriors, when you get killed by something hilarious like Marrowgars cleave and that Paladin isn't there to solo him while you get BRezzed... just be careful what you wished for.

[Stixxz]

I have to wonder, if it were Warriors who were in the position of Paladins in ICC right now would this nerf be happening to them? I guess Tankadins dont QQ enough about trivial crap like DPS to really warrant being spared the nerf bat at the slightest sign of viability.

Just remember Warriors, when you get killed by something hilarious like Marrowgars cleave and that Paladin isn't there to solo him while you get BRezzed... just be careful what you wished for.

If the healers do their job right, they wouldn't die. Don't rely on a talent to save you.

[Armen2]

To Vodka or BL:

Did you also use an alt raid to figure out tactics etc on 25man like Paragon and then went on your main raid? I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, just wondering if it's even possible to be a top raiding guild these days without having tons of alts.

[TobiasX]

Omg get over it, IF ardent defender goes off your "most likely" only delaying the inevitable for a few more seconds,

Just to clarify here: what about the situations where you're not? The number of wipes that it's only delayed are not important; the number of boss kills that it's enabled are.

I would much rather be able to plan when i wanted that extra health then never being able to move it

What you'd rather have doesn't matter. Right now it enables paladin tanks to survive an attack that would kill literally any other class / spec combination in the game (besides rogues specced into cheat death) from nobody's effort beyond you speccing into it. That isn't even remotely balanced.

There's nothing wrong with ardent defender

"would otherwise kill you" is wrong with ardent defender. If it required 1 player to actually do something besides make mistakes to make ardent defender happen (ideally pushing some kind of key on their keyboard) then it would be perfectly fine. Right now ardent defender prevents 1 wipe that should have happened (no elitism here, the tank should have died and only didn't because of a broken talent). It should have been removed a long time ago, or, ideally, never made it to live servers.

Its not a case of not being able to tank an encounter its more a case of lack of cooldowns, one of the problems we had in ulduar. Options we had in ulduar were Divine Protection and speccing into Improved Lay On Hands which had a stupid cooldown, where as warriors have shield wall (which lets not forget they can get as low as 1minute cooldown or so if they glyph for it?) + last stand, druid shave last stand (which they can get a 15% bonus on top of with glyphs), barkskin and a decent t10 4 set (which in all fairness they needed) even dks have 2 viable damage reduction cooldowns which is also justified due to not having a shield.

Paladins on the other hand would simply have Divine Protection if AD was removed putting us very far under other tanks when hardmodes come around and lots of cooldowns are needed to survive, you could argue "people in raid could give you them" but thats besides the point, bottom line is paladins would have 1 cooldown and now less health making them less desirable.

I've got no problem with the rest of the ardent defender talent remaining or paladins receiving another cooldown button; at least then you'd need to press something. However, an ability or talent that directly prevents death with no player interaction beyond speccing into it is broken no matter how ridiculous they made the cooldown on the effect.

[Seregon]

When will the tank changes come in effect?

[Contrivez]

I died because our healers are fucking bad

Mages need more HP.

You were oom anyway baddie.

<3

[killars]

To Vodka or BL:

Did you also use an alt raid to figure out tactics etc on 25man like Paragon and then went on your main raid? I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, just wondering if it's even possible to be a top raiding guild these days without having tons of alts.

Long answer: We only started using alts when TOC came out. We also never made it a necessary thing to have as a raider until recently. Our alts were meant to just mix in with mains so we can do 2 of each 25 man so we had double loot for our mains in essence. Looking at some other guilds alts we are very far behind in gear and unfortunately we have ppl playing classes they aren't exactly... "top raiding" guild type of players.

We did get the first Sindragosa kill on our alt raid with a handful of attempts only, but didn't make it passed P3 in our alt raid on Arthas.

Short Answer:We used all our limited attempts on our 25 Alt raid, but it wasn't very helpful. Main 10 mans is what really helped us figure out the fight and develop a strat.

[TobiasX]

Yes but this is what blizzard is trying to avoid, if they gave paladins last stand then they become warriors in effect that can aoe tank better - the only thing they could add to prevent it being like a warrior is turning AD into a Guardian Spirit type ability the paladin can use on him/herself just before they die OR another damage reduction which would make them more op'd than having AD.

I'm not asking for paladins to be given last stand. I'm not asking for AD to be turned into a guardian spirit that can only be cast on themselves. I'm asking for the portion of ardent defender that can never be truly balanced to be removed. What blizzard replaces it with is their problem and their decision.

I'm also not asking for paladins to become warriors or to be made unable to tank. Those are actually 2 things I'd very much like not to happen, but that doesn't give paladin tanks the excuse to have a broken talent. Ideally there should be no broken talents in the game at all.

[pavulon]

Is your guild using pally as MT?
and how many times AD proc REALLY saved your raid from wipe.

[Armen2]

Long answer: We only started using alts when TOC came out. We also never made it a necessary thing to have as a raider until recently. Our alts were meant to just mix in with mains so we can do 2 of each 25 man so we had double loot for our mains in essence. Looking at some other guilds alts we are very far behind in gear and unfortunately we have ppl playing classes they aren't exactly... "top raiding" guild type of players.

We did get the first Sindragosa kill on our alt raid with a handful of attempts only, but didn't make it passed P3 in our alt raid on Arthas.

Short Answer:We used all our limited attempts on our 25 Alt raid, but it wasn't very helpful. Main 10 mans is what really helped us figure out the fight and develop a strat.

Thanks for the answer. I guess your alt raid is on the same level as ours then. It's really sad that it has come to this tbh.

[drakonblayde]

I'm assuming Blizzard still don't understand the monster that this talent truly is.

You give it too much credit. It's Last Stand on autopilot, that's all.

[Notrollz]

I'm assuming Blizzard still don't understand the monster that this talent truly is.

"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to..."
"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you"...
"attacks that Would Otherwise Kill You..."
It could be a 3 day cooldown and it would STILL be stupid to have a talent that basically says "when everyone messes up, you'll still survive, through no effort of your own". It is the single oh crap button in that game that requires no player interaction, thus no measurable amount of skill, in order to use.

Screw 'adjusting', this talent should never made it into live.

... and yes, it doesn't matter that it's "only 1 hit". It's 1 hit more than it should be.

i guess blizz should give paladins Last Stand?? next thing you know, warrior tanks will have mana pools...