Lich King US First Kill, Tanking Changes

[Nymrohd]

Probably the top reason for wipes in raids used to be tank death. It is not so much anymore but it is still one of the big ones. It can mean you don't have the gear for the encounter or that a healer messed up (and it can be a 0.1 sec mistake for the healer) but ultimately this is irrelevant. Random tank deaths from unexpected spikes or healer lockdown are part of the raid game. AD removes them from the raidgame. The problem is not the effect itself, it is the fact that it is passive. Noone screams foul for GS because it requires a decision. AD will save you from tank death that was completely unexpected and nothing else can mime this effect. Even on a 10min cooldown it will be OP if it is passive. And I am saying this while having a prot paladin as main. The skill deserves a nerf and we should get an active cooldown to replace it.

[AetherMcLoud]

A class being crap without a stupidly broken talent is not an excuse to keep the stupidly broken talent. If paladins are truly incapable of tanking encounters without Ardent Defender then the class' tanking system needs completely rethinking. Ardent Defender should be removed because it was stupid to give a talent that directly prevents death to a dps class and it's even more stupid to give it to a tanking class.

At the most basic level: in the majority of encounters the tank is the character taking the most damage and if the tank dies it's a wipe. This talent directly prevents 1 wipe. Besides the version of Cheat Death available when a level 70 rogue managed to tank both Gruul and Illidan there has never been an ability or talent that did this without any player interaction beyond speccing into it.

How is Argent Defender any more "broken" than Guardian Spirit?

Calls upon a guardian spirit to watch over the friendly target. The spirit increases the healing received by the target by 40%, and also prevents the target from dying by sacrificing itself. This sacrifice terminates the effect but heals the target of 50% of their maximum health. Lasts 10 sec.

Glyphed GS has a 1 minute cooldown as long as it doesn't sacrifice itself, otherwise 3 minutes. It's the best oh shit button priests (or dare I say all healers combined) have.

And GS is off the GCD so you can cast it whenever you need it instantly. Just like an activated Argent Defender. Oh and before you say "Argent Defender should be an active cooldown" - for it to be a "real" cooldown it would have to have another effect, like the +40% heal from GS. Which would make it better than it already is.

Argent Defender is certainly awesome, but so is Last Stand, or Vampiric Blood.

[Nymrohd]

How is Argent Defender any more "broken" than Guardian Spirit?

Calls upon a guardian spirit to watch over the friendly target. The spirit increases the healing received by the target by 40%, and also prevents the target from dying by sacrificing itself. This sacrifice terminates the effect but heals the target of 50% of their maximum health. Lasts 10 sec.

Glyphed GS has a 1 minute cooldown as long as it doesn't sacrifice itself, otherwise 3 minutes. It's the best oh shit button priests (or dare I say all healers combined) have.

And GS is off the GCD so you can cast it whenever you need it instantly. Just like an activated Argent Defender. Oh and before you say "Argent Defender should be an active cooldown" - for it to be a "real" cooldown it would have to have another effect, like the +40% heal from GS. Which would make it better than it already is.

Argent Defender is certainly awesome, but so is Last Stand, or Vampiric Blood.

GS is an active talent. It requires choice and awareness that something wrong may happen in the next 10 seconds. AD does not. This makes a huge difference.

[blupp]

It could be a 3 day cooldown and it would STILL be stupid to have a talent that basically says "when everyone messes up, you'll still survive, through no effort of your own". It is the single oh crap button in that game that requires no player interaction, thus no measurable amount of skill, in order to use.

what do you think, its the paladin class. Most things are passive as it is designed as a class for beginners, stateed by blizzard.

this talent has to be nerfed. it not funny anymrore seeing pally tanks run around thinking they are god when they dont even need to play to be the best tanks.

hope that nerf is just the first step, dmg done by them should also be nerfed and ardent defender ofc.


idea: Just make ardent defender an active ability and most paladins will be too bad to use it because they just got no skill.

[Nymrohd]

Sure, tanking as a paladin takes no skill. Wake up. Tanking does not take skill depending on out threat rotations. We are not dpsers and we are not talking about heroics. Tanking takes skill in handling encounter mechanics aimed at tanks. And that takes skill whatever your class may be. It's not how well we survive an encounter that makes as skill; this has far more to do with the healers than us. It is how well we execute the encounter.

[Juggernautt]

I'm assuming Blizzard still don't understand the monster that this talent truly is.

"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to..."
"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you"...
"attacks that Would Otherwise Kill You..."
It could be a 3 day cooldown and it would STILL be stupid to have a talent that basically says "when everyone messes up, you'll still survive, through no effort of your own". It is the single oh crap button in that game that requires no player interaction, thus no measurable amount of skill, in order to use.

Screw 'adjusting', this talent should never made it into live.

... and yes, it doesn't matter that it's "only 1 hit". It's 1 hit more than it should be.

the fact you dont die is the kicker, it's 100% bullshit

[Stone_Rhino]

Ardent Defender - Attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your maximum health. Will proc when the pally is low on health

Last Stand - When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec allowing you to survive an attack that would otherwise kill you. Will be activated by any smart warrior when low on health.

Whats the difference again? Cause I honestly cant find it.

[Rafy]

so awesome looking at all the dps QQ-ing about AD being OP and they want to nerf tanks.
next time you wipe on Marrowgar, you will be mad, but you should be mad at yourself.

[Instant]

Awfully lot of shamans in your raid. I bet that ele shaman, with recent buff to Shamanism, WOULD TOP the dps meters, wouldn't he? :O

[Juggernautt]

Mages need more HP.

You were oom anyway baddie.

<3

i lol'd

[TobiasX]

How is Argent Defender any more "broken" than Guardian Spirit?

You need to press a button to use Guardian Spirit. Ardent Defender just sits there in the background and waits for somebody to screw up.

Ardent Defender - Attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your maximum health. Will proc when the pally is low on health

Last Stand - When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec allowing you to survive an attack that would otherwise kill you. Will be activated by any smart warrior when low on health.

Whats the difference again? Cause I honestly cant find it.

AD prevents death. LS doesn't. Next.

[Juggernautt]

Ardent Defender - Attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your maximum health. Will proc when the pally is low on health

Last Stand - When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec allowing you to survive an attack that would otherwise kill you. Will be activated by any smart warrior when low on health.

Whats the difference again? Cause I honestly cant find it.

Attacks that would otherwise kill you...

so you dont die, you live.

[fangless]

First off, Grats Vodka. Even if you aren't on Mannoroth anymore, I still cheer for you. I remember wiping you guys trying to get to MC through BRD like it was yesterday


Second, let me get this straight. In order to buff DK tanking, they brought IBF backed to the level it was originally when Wrath first came out? Great job.



edit1+2: This isn't a DK buff really, it's bringing an ability back in line where it should of been to begin with.
Also, I realize that no one that used to be in Vodka from the old days is still in it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any familiar names.

[Nymrohd]

Btw the DK buff intrigues me. Maybe it is time to do some heroics with my DK JC bot for fun.

[Stone_Rhino]

AD prevents death. LS doesn't. Next.

Ah, but how many times did the extra HP from last stand give that healer the extra .1 seconds and prevent the tank from dying.

You said earlier that "At the most basic level: in the majority of encounters the tank is the character taking the most damage and if the tank dies it's a wipe. This talent directly prevents 1 wipe." How is that not true for LS as well.

Also, LS can be used when you are at half health, or full to save you when you know that youre about to take some big hits. Or on aoe packs to give your healer a break. You are so completely focused on the 1 thing AD does that you are willing to ignore all the other benefits LS offers.

[AetherMcLoud]

You need to press a button to use Guardian Spirit. Ardent Defender just sits there in the background and waits for somebody to screw up.

But AD doesn't do anything besides preventing the death. GS gives 40% more heal while active, plus it heals for 20% more if the target would have died. So to make AD an active talent it would have to be buffed, probably a whole lot.

Can you imagine the outcry of warriors and druids if paladins would get such an awesome cooldown? Passive AD is nice. Active AD with +30% maxhealth, +40% heal or whatever the buff would be, would be awesomesauce.

[kleksiq]

"What happend, i was sandboxing" <3 // Gz Vodka ( btw Polish or Russian ? xD )

[Stone_Rhino]

Ensidia got the first kill... Stop saying otherwise. Only blizzard that dosen't manage to make the boss script right.
They can't make a bomb that bugs the boss up when it works on every other boss. And the bomb is used WW for DPS.

No, they didnt. To bug it you had to place the bombs on a very specific part of the platform at a very particular time. Their use of the bugged mechanic was in no way an accident.

They just planned on using the exploit and then getting off scott free, just like they have done on several other world firsts.

And what happens when they know about the exploit but dont get to use it first? They report the other guild.
http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Wo...it-like-that/8

[Wannabetank]

I'm assuming Blizzard still don't understand the monster that this talent truly is.

"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to..."
"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you"...
"attacks that Would Otherwise Kill You..."
It could be a 3 day cooldown and it would STILL be stupid to have a talent that basically says "when everyone messes up, you'll still survive, through no effort of your own". It is the single oh crap button in that game that requires no player interaction, thus no measurable amount of skill, in order to use.

Screw 'adjusting', this talent should never made it into live.

... and yes, it doesn't matter that it's "only 1 hit". It's 1 hit more than it should be.

I sopose druids warriors shouldnt have last stand/survial instincks for 30% more hp alternatively 30% heal for 20seconds yes i totally understand NERF PALAS HP, NERF PALAS ONLY ABILITY LIKE LAST STAND palas should use cloth instead of plate and palas ar eso OP they require only greys.

Ever tried understading y paladins have this ability? By all mans remove argent but i want warrior druid abilitys taken with it.

[Pisholina]

The thing with Ardent Defender is that, if healer or tankadin screws something up, they can fix it.
Take Ignis the Furnace Master for example. He might take tankadin's healer in the slag pot. What can the tankadin do? He can only use Divine Protection and trinket proc's if he has any. Other tanks in the same situation would have more things to do. Warriors can use Shield block, Shield Wall and Last Stand. Death Knight Tanks can use Death Pact if they are low on health, Icebound Fortitude, Vampiric Blood and Rune Tap if you are Blood specced, Unbreakable Armor if you are Frost specced and Bone Shield and Anti-Magic Zone if you are Unholy specced. Now I don't know about Druid tanks because i never played one, but people say they also have some tanking cooldowns. Now Argent Defender works the same way as lets say Last Stand, but instead of giving you 35% max hp, it heals you for 35% hp if you are about to die. If Blizzard removes Ardent Defender, then why would they keep Last Stand, Vampiric Blood and all other major healing spells?