Lich King US First Kill, Tanking Changes

[Grimraven]

Landsoul, nice damage!!!!

[TobiasX]

Every heal you get on low HP prevents you from death. Blizz should change it, its gamebreaking. At any heal you get if under 30% of HP a messagebox should pop-up asking, if you agree with that incoming heal or not. Else it would preventing your death without needed to click - you dont need a skill to stay alive, if you are healed and you dont need to click that you agree with incoming one heal, or maybe more heals in 10 seconds - so it will be not too much messageboxes on your screen what would need much bigger skill.

It's not the heal that's the issue and you know it. If you're going to troll at least try and make it funny next time

[Zarahtra]

I am a tankadin. I personally don't think AD is OP, though quite strong. That being said, if Blizzard thinks AD is OP, they should infact nerf AD, I see no reason pallies should loose 4% stamina due to that.

AD is paladins Last Stand/Survival Instinct/Bone Shield(etc). Again it is strong, but I'd argue so are the other CDs, just the other CDs are more of a "We're struggling 1 healer just died, you need to survive a bit whilst the druid BRes" whilst AD is more "Okay our holy paladin had to move and you got bursted down". Which is stronger I'd argue depends on the situation.

4% hp on the other hand, I'm wondering why that was needed? We're on-par with atleast Warriors on health, both have a lot of versitility(paladins more defensively whilst warriors more offensively). -20% below 35% is basicly what you have to take into account vs warriors. Warriors have abilities though such as shield block which imo weight enough against this(as -20% is only ~4k hp), but one can argue around that.

TLDR: I personally don't think this nerf was warranted, if there's something wrong with an ability fix or change that ability, not make the class around the ability.

[Druchii]

Landsoul, nice damage!!!!

What do you expect from the man himself?

Grats vodka! =D

[Antik]

I'm a little curious which fight mechanics are catapulting locks from 3-5th damage on mostly all prior bosses post buffs, to 1st.

Also the AD discussion is annoying.

Good locks aren't 3-5 on other fights. Our locks, anyway, are traditionally in the top 3.

[magik8ball]

Look at the logs in both Vodka's kill and Paragon's kill. There is 1 dps shaman between the both of them, and that one is 15th on the list. And blizzard says dps shamans aren't being marginalized...

[Goulashia]

- Its easy to play pala tank. Its harder to play him at cap :-)

What? It's not harder to play the best at any class than just pressing buttons mindlessly?

- With mana its good in raids, harder in heroics or if soloing/questing.

Heh... it's not hard, learn to chain pull. 15seconds is more than enough time to get to the next pull.

- Pala has good aoe, but not good enough if every dps is nuking other target :-D

Paladins have the best aoe tanking abilities along with DKs.

- the only harder thing with warriors is stance dancing, like you need to get to berserk stance for pummel and back to defense stance - its more clicking. And then we have macros :-)

You obviously don't play a Warrior, as I play both prot pally/warrior and druid.

- blizzard didnt wrote on creating character screen - if you are beginner get palla, if you wanna be good tank, get warrior. I choosed paladin because RP :-)

That's great.....

- how many prot and retri paladins have 'cleanse' in action bar, how many of them use it?

I don't know of any decent paladins that don't have it on their bar, they shouldn't be playing a paladin if they don't. I've seen all the decent ones cast it on themselves to get out of a root.

- how many paladins put BOP on someone who need it?

If you're playing at your so called "cap" this shouldn't be required. Righteous defense has always sufficed.

- how many paladins use LoH on someone who need it after someone took big direct dmg or aoe and is near to die?

AoE? Healers job. Direct damage? You weren't doing your job in the first place, you should use that GCD to taunt rather than waste that spell.

- how many paladins use Hammer of justice to interrupt boss spelcasting (valkiers in toc) if there isnt interrupt class like rogue or is interruper dead or just noob?

You don't get around much.

- many times its easy to play with war, because he can interrupt every 10 sec, shield bash, disarm, harmstring, shockweave - pala doesnt have them - its because that to play with pala easy? because he lack these usefull abilities?

Warriors are the base tank, all the other tanks have some element from Warriors that are in some case better.
Shockwave - Holy Wrath and in all directions. Yes it's only undead but Northrend is heavy in those, especially ICC.
Shield Bash - DK's have their version
Hamstring - Why would a warrior use that while tanking? You guys have Avenger's Shield if there's some reason a slow is needed.
Disarm - How often can that be used on bosses or any important fight?

Half of those things you mentioned explain how Paladins can be superior. I'll just make a small list to add on.


-Paladins have Righteous Hammer, a vastly superior spell compared to any tanking class when it comes to heroics.
-Avenger's Shield siliences and shorter cooldown than Heroic throw, so it's easier to gather up caster mobs up as a Paladin.
-Consecration, a near constant aoe damage if used every time the cooldown is up. Druid are the only one close to matching that with swipe but don't generate the same aoe threat a paladin can. Don't reason with tier pieces.
-Judgements, the raid gets a nice benefit from either the health or mana one.
-Superior buffing, there can be superior buffs to Warrior shouts.
-Extremely easy to achieve 100% better mitigation because Paladins can have 100% chance to block if they don't evade it because of Holy Shield.
-No worries of rage, mana can be easily kept up as I have stated.
-Bubbles, Salvation, helps if the person manages to over aggro. Of course I'm accounting if you're not the tank.
-There's probably more.

[bigben85]

Ardent Defender - Attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your maximum health. Will proc when the pally is low on health

Last Stand - When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec allowing you to survive an attack that would otherwise kill you. Will be activated by any smart warrior when low on health.

Whats the difference again? Cause I honestly cant find it.

Ok, I am a warrior tank. I consider my self pretty experienced having tanked most encounters of wotlk (still room to improve, as always). But consider this, Last Stand doesn't always save me. Sometimes I die before I can press it. Yes, I died before I can press it. In ICC, there's at least 3 times when I pressed last stand and then shield wall but I died before they became activated. This could be due to unpredictable huge hits (Festergut, or even Morrowgar) that I just can't act fast enough to for those few times where I died. It could also due to lag (or DC for others) that we fail to have Last Stand activated at the moment when we need it. Warrior tanks take spiky damage, we can't always have 3 seconds to know when we will take 2 hits in a row and die. Also, there are healers who have lag issues, that makes it even harder to know when to use my cooldowns as I don't know when they lag out bad. For paladin tanks, you don't NOT have to worry about all the above as much as I do as you will always have 1 "cooldown" that can save you from dying if all else you do fails from saving you. If anything, AD and Last Stand should swap their places, not because I like taking it easy as a tank but because it makes no sense to have an easy OP tank class to have even a better survival tool that requires no interaction from the player as others have stated.

[Jasongetsdown]

I see a lot of QQ on here about Ardent Defender, including one person saying that one AD proc = one wipe saved, and another who said its a bad talent for a dps class.
I don't know what to make of the second point. If you're saying AD is bad because retadins can spec it then you don't know it won't proc unless you have more than base defense, i.e. you have to gear for defense for it to actually heal for anything. If you're calling Paladins a DPS class then, basically, fuck you.

As for the first point it couldn't be farther from the truth. Typically when it procs its more like a swan's song than a savior. I have had AD save a raid, but it is VERY rare. If AD procs something is wrong and the next hit you don't avoid is probably going to kill you. Most of the time something is VERY wrong. For me it typically doesn't proc until half the raid is dead. So what was saved then? Another couple seconds. Unless the boss is at 1% a wipe is imminent AD or not.

If Pallys are going to have AD, which is basically 30% extra health, then a stam nerf is probably justified. I personally think its an interesting feature and something unique that Protadins bring to a raid. I've got 31K armor and a heap of avoidance, I'm not too worried about it.

Someone else said that Pally tank cooldowns are plentiful. This may once have been true, but not now that LoH causes forbearance. You may have three to choose from but you only get to use one every two minutes. DK tanks have plentiful cooldowns. I haven't played one but my DK tank buddy is always bragging about it...

[Warlocomotif]

Good locks aren't 3-5 on other fights. Our locks, anyway, are traditionally in the top 3.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, please refer to statistics taken from a large sample size (IE: WMO charts)

[TobiasX]

I see a lot of QQ on here about Ardent Defender, including one person saying that one AD proc = one wipe saved, and another who said its a bad talent for a dps class.
I don't know what to make of the second point. If you're saying AD is bad because retadins can spec it then you don't know it won't proc unless you have more than base defense, i.e. you have to gear for defense for it to actually heal for anything. If you're calling Paladins a DPS class then, basically, fuck you.

I think you're misunderstood what I was saying. I said it was a stupid talent for a dps class to have (the dps version is a rogue talent called Cheat Death, it also reads "when you would die, instead..." or words to that effect). Of course prot paladins are not a dps class.

As for the first point it couldn't be farther from the truth. Typically when it procs its more like a swan's song than a savior. I have had AD save a raid, but it is VERY rare. If AD procs something is wrong and the next hit you don't avoid is probably going to kill you. Most of the time something is VERY wrong. For me it typically doesn't proc until half the raid is dead. So what was saved then? Another couple seconds. Unless the boss is at 1% a wipe is imminent AD or not.

It stops you from being dead when you should have been no matter how much damage you take. Sorry, but that's broken.

If Pallys are going to have AD, which is basically 30% extra health, then a stam nerf is probably justified. I personally think its an interesting feature and something unique that Protadins bring to a raid. I've got 31K armor and a heap of avoidance, I'm not too worried about it.

It's more than just unique feature of prot paladins and for that 1 hit is miles more powerful than any other spell, ability or talent in the game besides Cheat Death.

Someone else said that Pally tank cooldowns are plentiful. This may once have been true, but not now that LoH causes forbearance. You may have three to choose from but you only get to use one every two minutes. DK tanks have plentiful cooldowns. I haven't played one but my DK tank buddy is always bragging about it...

DKs have a lot of cooldown. That doesn't mean paladins should be allowed to keep AD in its current form.
The Stam buff is fine.
The +30% health is fine.
The "you will not take damage from the attack" and "you will not die from the attack" is not.

[Contrivez]

I suppose that's why Vodka and Paragon both ran paladin tanks. I've yet to see or hear about this mystical prot warrior skillspec from anyone other then butthurt warriors on forums.

Our main tank is a warrior.

[reve]

it's easier to gather up caster mobs up as a Paladin.

I'll just leave it there... ???

[Missfit]

Maybe Acrylic was playing Demo?
In Paragon kill Diviil was first on recount too and using demospecc.

Think about it:
LK has +70M HP, so 35% ~ 25-30M
If you spamm Soul fire so much time, you get a ¡whohohohhoy! incredible dps.
As the demolock of my guild, i'm glad to see that

[Terracresta]

Yes, take away my AD and give me a short cd interupt aka shieldbash and non-silenceable tankskills! Would make farming Thekal in ZG far faster and less nervewracking...

PS: And yes, nerf all tanks. There are too many already, thats why i need to wait 10+ min with my dds chars to get into a random heroic group...

[fled]

I'm assuming Blizzard still don't understand the monster that this talent truly is.

"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to..."
"attacks that would otherwise kill you cause you"...
"attacks that Would Otherwise Kill You..."
It could be a 3 day cooldown and it would STILL be stupid to have a talent that basically says "when everyone messes up, you'll still survive, through no effort of your own". It is the single oh crap button in that game that requires no player interaction, thus no measurable amount of skill, in order to use.

Screw 'adjusting', this talent should never made it into live.

... and yes, it doesn't matter that it's "only 1 hit". It's 1 hit more than it should be.

WHAT A STEAMY PILE!!!

Noobs like you think its an i-win button when its not. Its a progression tool. Why? Because anything that hits hard enough to KILL THE TANK with one swing in a raid WILL PROBABLY END UP KILLING HIM WITH THE SECOND OR THIRD SWING!!!

All this tool does is delay a wipe. When AD goes off, the shit is already inside the fan blades. AD has NEVER gone off during an encounter and we ended up killing the boss; and our guild is a server top 10.

All this tool does is allow the raid to see a couple more seconds of the encounter while you are still learning the fight as a guild. However if your tank healer(s) fell asleep at the keyboard or experienced lag, then yes, it buys you some time, but I have never personally seen this happen.

[Offhand]

Our main tank is a warrior.

I can see that. But I also see either a prot paladin or a 3k dps ret paladin.

[Kriziak]

What? It's not harder to play the best at any class than just pressing buttons mindlessly?Heh... it's not hard, learn to chain pull. 15seconds is more than enough time to get to the next pull.Paladins have the best aoe tanking abilities along with DKs.You obviously don't play a Warrior, as I play both prot pally/warrior and druid.That's great.....I don't know of any decent paladins that don't have it on their bar, they shouldn't be playing a paladin if they don't. I've seen all the decent ones cast it on themselves to get out of a root.If you're playing at your so called "cap" this shouldn't be required. Righteous defense has always sufficed.AoE? Healers job. Direct damage? You weren't doing your job in the first place, you should use that GCD to taunt rather than waste that spell.You don't get around much.Warriors are the base tank, all the other tanks have some element from Warriors that are in some case better.
Shockwave - Holy Wrath and in all directions. Yes it's only undead but Northrend is heavy in those, especially ICC.
Shield Bash - DK's have their version
Hamstring - Why would a warrior use that while tanking? You guys have Avenger's Shield if there's some reason a slow is needed.
Disarm - How often can that be used on bosses or any important fight?

Half of those things you mentioned explain how Paladins can be superior. I'll just make a small list to add on.


-Paladins have Righteous Hammer, a vastly superior spell compared to any tanking class when it comes to heroics.
-Avenger's Shield siliences and shorter cooldown than Heroic throw, so it's easier to gather up caster mobs up as a Paladin.
-Consecration, a near constant aoe damage if used every time the cooldown is up. Druid are the only one close to matching that with swipe but don't generate the same aoe threat a paladin can. Don't reason with tier pieces.
-Judgements, the raid gets a nice benefit from either the health or mana one.
-Superior buffing, there can be superior buffs to Warrior shouts.
-Extremely easy to achieve 100% better mitigation because Paladins can have 100% chance to block if they don't evade it because of Holy Shield.
-No worries of rage, mana can be easily kept up as I have stated.
-Bubbles, Salvation, helps if the person manages to over aggro. Of course I'm accounting if you're not the tank.
-There's probably more.

- First, i am not cap, but i try play good as I can :-) Far from cap yet :-)
- AoE tanking - warriors have quite nice thunderclap and taunt all ability (challenging shout), but yes, we have good AoE. I only say that it isnt allmighty
- "decent paladins that don't have it on their bar", yeah decent. Not noobs
- "Direct damage? You weren't doing your job in the first place" - you mean like chain lighting on Emalon or frostbolt on Lady Deathwhisper or similar is my job? :-)
- "AoE? Healers job" - right, but sometimes it can be too much for them Shit happens.
- Faction Champions - I use taunt always if I can. If are all taunts on CD and stun too, or if mob is immune because of DR, then I BoP the leather or cloth wearer who is attacked. BoP can be used too in ToC on Gormok for debufing or Anubarak p2.
- "Holy Wrath and in all directions. Yes it's only undead but Northrend is heavy in those, especially ICC." - ICC isnt the only raid what appeared in WoTLK. And cant be used in PVP in example
- "Hamstring - Why would a warrior use that while tanking? You guys have Avenger's Shield if there's some reason a slow is needed." - thats of PVP ofc not tanking, just out of tanking theme - only diferencies between warriors and pala buttons
- "Disarm - How often can that be used on bosses or any important fight?" - only Gormok normal mode I think. Else just umiportant trash, but you can lower dmg incoming.
- "Shield Bash - DK's have their version" - nice for DK I can interrupt boss every 45 sec and i can silence player in pvp for 3 sec with avenger shield (but ofc I play prot pvp only in AV or outdoor if i am attacked while on dailies )
- "Extremely easy to achieve 100% better mitigation because Paladins can have 100% chance to block if they don't evade it because of Holy Shield." - because of that are always warriors solo tanking 4 adds at AnubArak HM? :-) But yeah in ToC i have 60% avoidance and 42% shield block with holy shield active, in ICC its a little worse

ofc all healing and debuffing you can let only on healers, why should in example some retri pally use LoH on someone if shit happen and too much ppl get big dmg at once from orbs at Twin Val'kyr? They dont need to. But they can save someone or even raid. And I think that using of all possible abilities to help raid is something what brings you to cap.

[AcrylicVodka]

Maybe Acrylic was playing Demo?
In Paragon kill Diviil was first on recount too and using demospecc.

Think about it:
LK has +70M HP, so 35% ~ 25-30M
If you spamm Soul fire so much time, you get a ¡whohohohhoy! incredible dps.
As the demolock of my guild, i'm glad to see that

I was playing Affliction, Jack was playing demo. Both specs have their ups and downs on that encounter.

[stupid11]

I died because our healers are fucking bad

Did your Hunter die too? Why is he so low?