Nibelung viable now?

[haashaashaas]

Nibelung hotfix (Nibelung)
We are currently in the process of applying two hotfix improvements to the Nibelung staff. The first change is that we are improving the chance for a val’kyr to proc from 1% to 2%. While this may not seem like a significant improvement, it will be notable and result in the val'kyr appearing more often.

The second change is that anytime a summoned val’kyr casts her smite spell, she will heal herself for 25% of the damage done. This will help keep them alive when AoE damage is happening but not make them invincible as we still want them to feel like a summoned creature and not a special form of a DoT spell that has awesome art.

We understand the frustrations players have had with this weapon so far. We currently plan to make more proc weapons in the future and are committed to making this and other proc weapons fun and competitive items.

Will Nibelung now win over Mag'hari Chieftain's Staff?
What about a MH+OH combo?

[Rogge]

I'm playing a mage, but I guess for determining if nibelung is viable, it doesn't matter that much?

I went through our log from yesterday to see what the valkyrie did. All numbers are in effective dps;

Festergut 25
I did 10422 dps. The valkyrie did 118

Rotface 25
I did 9663 dps. The valkyrie did 12.1

Blood queen 25 (8 wipes and one kill)
I did 12592 dps. The valkyrie did 20.2

Compared to an equal level staff such as the one from blood queen, nibelung is missing stats worth 300-400dps.

Nibelung was absolutely terrible for me to use yesterday. And after the buffs, it would still have been terrible.

[haashaashaas]

Thanks for your info Rogge.
Do you also have some info on fights where the valkyr won't die really quickly of the aoe?

[Rogge]

Went through the day before that with the other bosses. It's even more ridiculous though;

Marrowgar
Me: 8066. Valkyrie: 65.3

Lady Deathwhisper
Me: 7347. Valkyrie: 0

Saurfang (had a dc here )
Me: 6864 Valkyrie: 0

On blood prince council I was chasing bombs and stuff, didn't do much dps. Had no valkyrie proc there either though.

As you can see, even doubling the effective damage you get from them (by doubling the proc) wouldn't have made them anywhere near the 300-400dps worth of stats in any fight.

Maybe others have different experiences. Me, I'm just waiting for some other weapon to drop.

[Vetali]

I play a Warlock, but maybe my info will be of some help.

I got Nibelung 2 days ago. I could go through my mana pool 3 times on the dummy as afflic or destro with out it proccing so I put in my bags. Before the hotfix my shadow priest friend with Nibelung and I ran a heroic GunDrak, his staff procced about 7 times through the instance, mine only once.

Tonight in an ony pug I decided to use it because I heard from a guildy the hotfix was applied. I think in the entire ony fight it procced about 6 times as destro until some DPS pulled aggro and ony cleaved+breathed on the ranged getting me killed(gotta love pugs!) Recount showed my Valks doing about 880 DPS

In heroics I am getting lots more procs and even some double procs which I never saw 2 days ago.

Its a very cool staff, but as to how viable it is I can't answer. Its too much RNG to give you a solid answer.My other weapons are Frost Needle and Talisman of Heedless Sins

[Pullup]

I don't know why people are bashing this staff so much.
It does 120-140k damage and usually aout 9-11% of my total damage done on most fights except blood queen and rotface due to the insane aoe.For festergut it was not that good but with the new heal itself its going to be even better.
I frequently see 2 proced at the same time and it procs in each and every fight BEFORE the buff.
After the buff I didn't raid yet but this is going to be sweeter.
Me and the other ele shaman in the guild have agreed that nibelung hc will be our weapon of choice since LK weapons where disapointing.
GL tho.

[Nezoia]

Why is the OP comparing a staff from 25man with a staff from 10man ?!? Nibelung is far more terrible than any other caster weapon in ICC25, or ToC25HM.

That it's competitive with a 10man weapon isn't really a surprise...

[haashaashaas]

Why is the OP comparing a staff from 25man with a staff from 10man ?!? Nibelung is far more terrible than any other caster weapon in ICC25, or ToC25HM.

That it's competitive with a 10man weapon isn't really a surprise...

Because that's the other weapon I have and that has proven to be a better choice so far...

I was wondering how much better this hotfix made the staff.

[Rogge]

I don't know why people are bashing this staff so much.
It does 120-140k damage and usually aout 9-11% of my total damage done on most fights except blood queen and rotface due to the insane aoe.For festergut it was not that good but with the new heal itself its going to be even better.
I frequently see 2 proced at the same time and it procs in each and every fight BEFORE the buff.
After the buff I didn't raid yet but this is going to be sweeter.

Do you have any logs or screenshots or anything to support this?

To be honest 10% of your total damage on most fights sounds completely made up.

140k damage from a valkyrie would mean it did 4666 dps. This is simply not true or possible. They do about 1000-1500 dps while active.

If you mean 140k total in a fight, that would mean you made 1.4 million damage. Which would, on a normal festergut kill, mean you did about 2500 dps yourself.

[cruxxy]

Our mage used Nib on a few HAnub kills and the val'lyrs were consistently doing 10-12% of his total damage. However, he was trying out frost, and we had heard that the proc rate had something to do with debuffs on the boss, so frost + Nib = OP

However, I've not yet heard that the proc triggers are optimized for shadowpriests, decreasing its value even further for us.

[harky]

Uh. People are really off-base on Nibelung. It was useful even before the buff, which has basically doubled the worth of the proc. The caveat here is that any fight with a lot of random damage will really hurt how well it does. If there's no huge AOE going on to kill them constantly, then it's a 2% proc on spell cast for 30k damage. On a fight like Blood Queen it's a 2% proc for ~6k damage. What you need to check is your actions per minute, which you can see in Simcraft and check the average up-time that you'd get from that. The stat comparison for Maghari means you need something seriously low like 28 actions per minute for them to be equal, which is an action every 2.15 seconds or so, which is extremely low. With a realistic number of actions, say 40, you'd get around a proc every ~66 seconds on average. So if their uptime is at least ~56% then the staffs are equal.

[gherkin]

It is my understanding that it can proc off anything that can be resisted, specifically binary spells. In the case of a Frost Mage, all frost effects are binary.
Thus a frost bolt has double the chance to proc this than a fireball (dot effect cannot be resisted).

Shadow priests might have the same luck as well due to the Mind Flay snare effect.

However, this is just the rumor mill churning and may be wholly inaccurate. Take it with a grain of salt.

[harky]

Nope, that's actually correct. It's also why Affliction gets abnormally high results in up time.

[Logbc]

It is my understanding that it can proc off anything that can be resisted, specifically binary spells. In the case of a Frost Mage, all frost effects are binary.
Thus a frost bolt has double the chance to proc this than a fireball (dot effect cannot be resisted).

Shadow priests might have the same luck as well due to the Mind Flay snare effect.

However, this is just the rumor mill churning and may be wholly inaccurate. Take it with a grain of salt.

This was nerfed two days ago.

[Sidonis]

Affliction > Spriest > Boomkin/Destruction > Demo/Fire/Ele > Arcane/Frost*

That's highest to lowest on the value of Nibelung. They -do- proc off DoT spell ticks, just not DoTs caused by other spells (i.e. it can proc off Haunt, CoA, Corruption, Immolate, SW:P, Devouring Plague, Vampiric Touch, Moonfire, Insect Swarm, Living Bomb, Flame Shock, but -not- off of Ignite, the DoT applied by Conflagrate, or the Languish DoT applied by Boomkin 4pc T10.), for spells like Mind Flay and Arcane Missiles it has a chance to proc off the initial cast, but not the following ticks. It -can- proc off each jump of Chain Lightning, as well as Overload procs.

* The ranking for Frost is for single target DPS, AoE'ing on trash with imp blizzard seems to proc them like crazy.

Basically because of a lack of either hit, crit, or haste on the staff, the general rule of thumb is that it's value doesn't truly shine until you've capped those stats elsewhere on your gear, which is part of what makes it less and less useful the less DoTs you're capable of debuffing a boss with.

[Vetali]

Affliction > Spriest > Boomkin/Destruction > Demo/Fire/Ele > Arcane/Frost*

That's highest to lowest on the value of Nibelung. They -do- proc off DoT spell ticks, just not DoTs caused by other spells (i.e. it can proc off Haunt, CoA, Corruption, Immolate, SW:P, Devouring Plague, Vampiric Touch, Moonfire, Insect Swarm, Living Bomb, Flame Shock, but -not- off of Ignite, the DoT applied by Conflagrate, or the Languish DoT applied by Boomkin 4pc T10.), for spells like Mind Flay and Arcane Missiles it has a chance to proc off the initial cast, but not the following ticks. It -can- proc off each jump of Chain Lightning, as well as Overload procs.

* The ranking for Frost is for single target DPS, AoE'ing on trash with imp blizzard seems to proc them like crazy.

Basically because of a lack of either hit, crit, or haste on the staff, the general rule of thumb is that it's value doesn't truly shine until you've capped those stats elsewhere on your gear, which is part of what makes it less and less useful the less DoTs you're capable of debuffing a boss with.

Compared to destro I hardly get any procs as afflic.

Last I checked it does not proc off of dot ticks, unless they changed that yesterday.

[cruxxy]

Where are you getting the information about DoT tick procs? Cuz that goes against every testing comment I've seen on various forums

[Sidonis]

@ DoT Ticks

My main is a boomkin, and unless I'm just getting one hell of a server delay on the proc happening (doubtful when I average 100-150ms), putting one Moonfire and one Insect Swarm up and nothing more, then seeing a Valkyr pop nearly 10 sec later, means it's proccing from the DoT ticks, not the initial application of said DoTs. Does it happen every time? No, but it can.

[tatienne]

Where are you getting the information about DoT tick procs? Cuz that goes against every testing comment I've seen on various forums

I have it on my boomkin with crapgear and I'm pretty sure it procs from dots.
the only place I've seen it doesn't proc from dots is the shamanforum and the guy who tested it there only tested flameshock. fs is a instant damage spell that leaves a small dot in it's wake and it's been theorized that those doesn't proc nibelung on their dots (but on the initial casts). I haven't tested if it's the same for moonfire though.

[nemex]

I have it on my boomkin with crapgear and I'm pretty sure it procs from dots.
the only place I've seen it doesn't proc from dots is the shamanforum and the guy who tested it there only tested flameshock. fs is a instant damage spell that leaves a small dot in it's wake and it's been theorized that those doesn't proc nibelung on their dots (but on the initial casts). I haven't tested if it's the same for moonfire though.

For moonkins, as well as every other class, the valkyrs can only proc from the application of DoTs, not from the ticks.